海角大神

Episode transcript

Sarah Matusek: The deeper I go in my knowledge building on this beat, and the more stakeholders I can talk to with different points of view, hopefully makes me a better communicator and able to better discern the right word to use.

Clay Collins:鈥� That鈥檚 Sarah Matusek. Sarah covers the Mountain West for the Monitor from her Denver base, and she writes a lot about issues surrounding immigration.

Immigration has shaped America one way or another since the days of the New World. It has translated to opportunity. It has spawned periods of policy debate, and surfaced legal and human rights issues under several US administrations.

鈥淚f you don鈥檛 have a border,鈥� President Trump has said, dating back to his first administration, 鈥測ou don鈥檛 have a country.鈥� Few would debate that. Less clear may be what enforcement under the law should look like today in the United States in very practical terms. There are deeply held beliefs to be heard and probed 鈥� respectfully, and with fairness.

[MUSIC]

Collins: This is 鈥淲hy We Wrote This.鈥� I鈥檓 Clay Collins. Sarah, a return guest, joins me today to talk about some of her recent reporting, including from the roof of an ICE field office in Portland, Oregon. Hey, Sarah!

Matusek: Hi, Clay. Thanks for the invite.

Collins: So at the risk of being overtaken here by news, since we record out ahead a little bit, there are reports now of a shakeup at Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE. And it鈥檚 not the first agency change, but it also involves the reach of Customs and Border Protection. And it looks to be rooted in dissatisfaction from the very top with the pace of deportation. Can you talk a little bit about what鈥檚 at play here, and how it looks in a historical context?

Matusek: Yeah, you鈥檙e right, Clay. We are expecting Border Patrol officials to take over the role of Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials at ICE field offices across the country, and that鈥檚 the conclusion that multiple outlets have reached, starting with the Washington Examiner, Fox News, LA Times, along with my own sourcing. The sense is that the administration is not satisfied with the rates of arrests and deportation so far. Trump 鈥� you might remember on the campaign trail 鈥� he promised the largest deportation operation in American history, while fewer than 1 million deportations are expected this year, compared with 14 million unauthorized immigrants in the country that we think are living here now.

And so by applying more aggressive Border Patrol arrest tactics in the interior, which has typically been the terrain of ICE, we may see those arrest numbers increase. Border Patrol has been trying this out in places like California and Chicago. But I do wanna remind our listeners that an arrest doesn鈥檛 automatically become a deportation, right? There are laws, processes, sometimes even international relations issues that can get in the way of deporting unauthorized immigrants, 鈥奺ven though the administration has already arrested them.

Homeland Security has said it鈥檚 deported more than 527,000 unauthorized immigrants so far, though it鈥檚 not completely clear how the administration is counting deportations, because it鈥檚 not publishing that data systematically, broken down into subcategories like we got under the past administration. Agencies like ICE, which is part of DHS, will publish standalone data snapshots in press statements when it wants to promote certain numbers, and that of course raises questions around accuracy and transparency.

Lastly, just for comparison though, under the Biden presidency, in fiscal year 2024, there were fewer than 300,000 deportations by ICE alone. I just caution that we may not be able to do an apples to apples comparison with the more than 500,000 deportations the current administration is reporting.

Collins: The murky data, obviously, as you say, makes it easy to support whatever narrative you want it to support. Um. Immigration has obviously become a huge story globally. Uh, It shapes political races. In the United States, there鈥檚 a spectrum of public opinion that runs from, you know, 鈥渘o human is illegal鈥� to the notion that being undocumented is an issue that can be sorted out through processes, all the way to the idea that immigrants 鈥� certain kinds of immigrants, in particular 鈥� are a threat to American security, economy, even identity. How do you acknowledge that spectrum of perceptions in your reporting?

Matusek: First of all, I wanna make it clear that I do want to talk to everyone. That鈥檚 one of the best parts of this job. As you well know, Clay, you get to cross over these political no man鈥檚 lands to talk to the other side. You know, in DC this summer, for instance, I was interviewing an unauthorized immigrant one day, then the acting director of ICE another day on that trip. And I know I鈥檓 not the first Monitor reporter to raise this, but if you peel back layers of rhetoric in your interviews, you actually begin to identify values that a lot of opposing parties actually have in common. The acting head of ICE, Todd Lyons, who鈥檚 a career law enforcement officer, you know, he says his officers are removing criminals to improve public safety. A lot of immigrants have come to the US through both illegal and legal means to improve their own safety. The agriculture sector in this country, which relies heavily on unauthorized labor, those guys will also tell you that a steady labor force is key to the safety of our food supply, our national security. So what would it look like for all these groups to dialogue at that level of values?

Collins: Hmm.

Matusek: I鈥檓 not sure, but I鈥檓 trying to get there. And maybe some listeners at this point are rolling their eyes right now because I sound like Pollyanna. But I鈥檒l offer one example of what I鈥檓 getting at here. One of the unauthorized immigrants I interviewed in DC actually did, in part, support President Trump鈥檚 crime crackdown in the city. And, you might remember, that involves scores of federal agents and other states鈥� National Guard. This source said he had a friend who had been brutally mugged on the streets of DC. He was aware the city had a crime problem and few locals would deny that, right? But what this source objected to was the government鈥檚 broad classification of people like him as serious criminals. This source goes to work, then goes home. He said he crossed the border illegally several years ago for a livable wage here, the chance to get an education here. Now, there doesn鈥檛 seem to be a clear way for him to legalize his status and the administration wants him out. But again, he had some overlap with the administration in wanting more public safety.

Collins: Clearly, storytelling is about individual people and families ... and places. You went over this in an episode you did about a year ago, and you characterized a lot of the pushback on immigration as being more about issues like the rate of change and the way immigrants enter. I鈥檓 hearing somewhat that the story has changed a fair bit in the year since we spoke, and I鈥檓 wondering now if you pursue different stories in order to illuminate different avenues.

Matusek: Yeah, I think I am pursuing different stories, but I am brought to them in the same way. I try to be driven by questions I have, rather than answers I think I have about a given subject. And you鈥檙e right, when we spoke last year before the election, I said I didn鈥檛 think Americans were against immigration wholesale; it was more so blowback against the rate of change. Under the Biden presidency, millions of immigrants were let into the country after crossing the border illegally or given temporary permission to enter and work. And since then, illegal border crossings have dropped precipitously from hundreds of thousands a month along the southwest border to thousands a month. And the government, meanwhile, has surged the military to the border while surging the Border Patrol further into the interior.

But I will say that I think the country is still reacting to a dramatic rate of change. But this time it鈥檚 about the change in immigration enforcement, whether that鈥檚 ICE arrests at immigration courthouses, or Border Patrol arrests outside Home Depots. Because while the government has surged the military to the border, and the Border Patrol has come up from the border, expanding arrests in the interior alongside ICE, that鈥檚 now coming up against what ICE has typically done, which is targeted arrests of criminals, right? The most serious public safety and national security threats in the interior. That actually takes a lot of intelligence gathering and planning of operations, making sure that that person is deportable, which is a totally different MO from what Border Patrol has had along the border, right? Rounding up big groups of people they assume have just crossed in illegally. Now school teachers, neighbors, business owners are caught up in this widening deportation dragnet. And so immigration enforcement is hitting closer to home for a lot of Americans in new ways.

I think what鈥檚 also changed is that there is a lot more fear. Immigrants whose future in the US is uncertain are often very afraid to talk to the media, and I think that鈥檚 totally fair. Now, even retired immigration officials are also afraid to be named in stories because of doxxing and other security concerns. I also understand where they鈥檙e coming from. I鈥檝e had sources fall out of stories or asked to scale back their attribution because of these concerns. And you know, journalist to journalist here, it鈥檚 taken some mental vigilance to make sure that I鈥檓 not absorbing that fear and anxiety from sources secondhand. Sometimes that looks like taking lots of short breaks in the workday, stepping outside, texting a friend.

Collins: I want to swing into your Portland reporting, Sarah, because though Chicago and Washington, LA and Memphis have drawn the Trump administration鈥檚 scrutiny, that city Portland, in some ways, sets up as one of the more interesting showdowns. Um, not just because of the visual impact of inflatable frog costumes, the tactical frivolity, as I鈥檝e seen it described, but you got some really good access there to a field office rooftop with some federal agents. You get good access in general, from a ride along with the Border Patrol in Vermont, to an interview with the acting head of ICE, which you mentioned earlier. You鈥檝e built up your sources among immigrant communities, and you鈥檝e developed your Spanish language skills. What goes into the work of getting and maintaining access, even given what you鈥檙e talking about with sources sometimes, you know, flaking out.

Matusek: Yeah, I mean in terms of access, I just ask. And if I don鈥檛 hear back, ask again. Then maybe again, but nicely. You know, sometimes I ask myself, 鈥渨hat would I pursue if I were just a slightly bolder person?,鈥� and then I just do that. Um, for the Portland story, which took place at an ICE field office there that鈥檚 been the site of protest for months, that鈥檚 an example of a story that, again, started with a question I had. I was reading about the Trump administration wanting to send in the Oregon National Guard, against local Democrats鈥� wishes, similar to what he did in California, to protect federal property and personnel. But I thought: 鈥淲ell, there鈥檚 already a federal agency tasked with protecting federal property and personnel across the country. It鈥檚 called the Federal Protective Service (FPS). It鈥檚 part of Homeland Security.鈥� So I reached out to Homeland Security Public Affairs in an email asking if I could report with the FPS in Portland. And then two days later, I heard from the Federal Protective Service directly, with a yes. And it鈥檚 rare in my experience that that access happens that fast. But I was grateful.

Collins: So take us deeper into that Portland reporting experience, which I gather had some tense moments along with some revelatory ones.

Matusek: Yeah, I ended up essentially driving a getaway car. But I need to rewind to get to that moment. So this ICE facility in Portland had been partially boarded up. And the administration has alleged property damage by protesters when things have turned violent intermittently.

So the only way into the facility was driving in, I was told, on this Sunday afternoon. And I had to arrange with public affairs ahead of time so that law enforcement personnel would be ready at the gate to open it and get protesters out of the way, so that I could drive in without incident, pass through this sally port and park in the facility鈥檚 garage. So that鈥檚 what I did after spending some time earlier that day talking to those very protesters that were yelling at the building I was entering. And inside the building, I got to interview a Federal Protective Service official there, but no other federal personnel were made available for on-the-record interviews. I had a public affairs chaperone there the whole time. I saw there was a gym inside the building. There鈥檚 a small detention space with a few cells that I was not allowed to photograph. But I did notice a sign on at least one of the cells encouraging immigrants in English and Spanish to self-deport.

Collins: Hmm.

Matusek: We went up on the roof where we met a few federal agents stationed there. And I will say beyond the Federal Protective Service, other federal agencies, including the Bureau of Prisons and Customs and Border Protection, are also stationed there to kind of beef up the security of this space.

And by that time during the day and early in the evening, only a few dozen protesters had been there. You know, there were some, yelling at the federal law enforcement who again, had to manage the entry and exits of every vehicle that came in and out of this building, to make sure that the protesters were out of the way. And I was there reporting at this ICE facility that day with another reporter from a conservative outlet. He had somehow walked into the building without needing a car. But now that it was getting late at night, and we were both interested in leaving, more protesters had gathered, and he was afraid of being targeted if he was seen walking out of the gate exposed. He had earlier that day stood on the rooftop with me and was kind of sharing barbs back and forth with the protesters, it sounded like, from my vantage point, uh, but that was part of his own MO. And so he was afraid of being targeted. So I offered to drop him off at his hotel.

At this point in the evening it鈥檚 dark outside, the crowd is thickening. We got into my rental car in the facility鈥檚 garage. I鈥檓 behind the wheel and he鈥檚 in shotgun. And I remember out of the corner of my eye, seeing him slowly reclining the seat. So he was laying flat out of eyesight of the window. And we had to wait for a signal from our public affairs contact that it was clear for us to exit the garage, turn the corner, to enter this sally port leading out of the building. And just as we did, the gates opened, and immediately protesters swarmed right in front of the gate. I was told to stop. So I was sitting there watching the protesters watch me as I gripped the steering wheel in this sally port.

I want to pause for some context, Clay. Less than two weeks prior, a shooter opened fire at another ICE field office in Dallas, in a vehicle at that facility鈥檚 sally port. These were immigrant detainees. CNN later reported that two out of the three shooting victims died. The shooter may have conflated that van with ICE. And I had watched for several hours that day, as protesters assumed everyone in vehicles entering and exiting that building were also affiliated with ICE. In front of me, I saw law enforcement officers pick up two protesters by their arms and legs, appeared to detain them, and walked them back towards the building. Eventually, after several tense minutes, just sitting with my foot on the brake in this overhang, the crowd was pushed back by law enforcement. I was told to go. And I sped out of the building with my colleague still out of sight next to me in shotgun.

Collins: Wow. Not the kind of day you thought you鈥檇 have when you woke up that morning.

Matusek: Yeah, just briefly I wanna add that no one targeted the car. We were safe. But I definitely had a lot to chew on that night about what seemed like guilt by association in the protesters鈥� eyes by my having been granted access to the ICE facility I was covering. Also, ironically, the most aggression I witnessed at the facility that day seemed to be provoked by my own exit.

Collins: There鈥檚 so much packed into that anecdote, about a lot of things including, you know, media comportment. Media coverage obviously does so much to shape perceptions about immigration and all of the players in ways that it chooses to depict reality. For instance, these reports of Homeland Security Chief Kristi Noem 鈥渟taring down鈥� protesters in Portland 鈥� again from a rooftop 鈥� were seen to be a little less dramatic than the phrase evokes when the camera pulled back, even though it was depicted in some outlets as being more confrontational. All of this really raises the stakes for the reporting, doesn鈥檛 it? The neutrality, making sure that you get things right without adding anything.

Matusek: I agree. I don鈥檛 know about you, but I鈥檒l be out to dinner enjoying a meal and conversation, and then I suddenly freeze up, second guessing whether I said calendar year instead of fiscal year to describe Border Patrol data in a story that was already published. You know, like, word choice haunts me long after a story is done. But I think in, gosh, in immigration reporting, it鈥檚 its own can of worms. And that鈥檚 not just because immigration language is always evolving, like terms do in society more broadly. But because sometimes in immigration words can have multiple meanings, right? They have maybe a political meaning versus a legal meaning, all swirling around them. Earlier in our conversation we talked about what counts as a deportation, right? Who counts as a refugee? There鈥檚 a legal definition for a refugee, but 鈥渄eportations鈥� is a looser term. In immigration court, deportations are called removals, right?

In choosing terms, we try to balance readability with accuracy. You will often hear from this administration the term 鈥渁lien.鈥� And while that may sound uncomfortable to some listeners, some readers, that鈥檚 actually a word found in our immigration laws under Title 8 of the U.S. Code. 鈥淎lien鈥� means 鈥渁ny person not a citizen or national of the United States.鈥� The Monitor鈥檚 style guide, which predates this administration, tells us not to use that term. Instead, you鈥檒l often read us using 鈥渦nauthorized immigrants.鈥� Our style guide also says that 鈥渋llegal鈥� 鈥渟hould only be used to describe an action, not a person. And like 鈥渁lien,鈥� we also don鈥檛 use the term 鈥渦ndocumented鈥� unless we鈥檙e quoting other people using those words.

The deeper I go in my knowledge building on this beat, and the more stakeholders I can talk to with different points of view, hopefully makes me a better communicator and able to better discern the right word to use. You know, I run these more or less biweekly meetings with other staff members at the Monitor, editors and writers who are interested in immigration. We check in about our coverage, share source ideas, but we also hear sometimes from subject matter experts. And we鈥檝e had everyone from an immigration judge, ICE spokesperson, retired ICE lawyer, advocate for unaccompanied minors come and talk to us. And I鈥檓 hoping that that鈥檚 introducing even more vocabulary and nuance in vocabulary to help us get better at this language thing.

Collins: Hmm. The intricacy of the work as you just described, it reminds me about an exchange that you and I had about this offline. Share some thoughts you鈥檝e had, about accreditation and the media, about who gets to say they鈥檙e a journalist, and you know, about how credentials might matter more and more in terms of public trust.

Matusek: Yeah, I鈥檝e been mulling this a lot lately. Especially since I just started my first semester of law school part-time. It鈥檚 interesting to see just how much accreditation goes into becoming a lawyer. You know, years of school, honor codes, a hard and expensive bar exam down the line, compared with what鈥檚 required to become a journalist, which doesn鈥檛 require any school. I went to school, but many don鈥檛, and that鈥檚 fine. You know, a lot of folks just dive in and learn on the job. And while lawyers, of course, are advocating for their client, we advocate for the reader. And there鈥檚 some consternation in the journalism world about how anyone with a smartphone and a platform can be a journalist now, but does that tarnish the reputation of the industry as a whole if these newer age journalists aren鈥檛 comporting with traditional ethics?

You know, there was a lot of stir, right, about who was signing on to the abnormally restrictive press access policies at the Pentagon [recently], right? And some of the media personalities in Portland have been verbally sparring with protesters, as I mentioned. And my thinking may evolve on this, but right now I鈥檓 not against an expansion of who calls themselves reporters, if it means more people are protected by the freedom of the press.

Collins: Hmm.

Matusek: I don鈥檛 think we can afford to be stingy with that precious protection in the Constitution. What we can do though is explain how we at the Monitor define ourselves as journalists. That鈥檚 kind of exactly what this podcast series does, right? And how our traditions set us apart and why that matters. Because getting audiences to care and choose us is of course the million dollar question. The only thing that I can control is my own behavior, right? My own curiosity and effort, trying to lead with an open heart and mind each day.

Collins: Well, thank you, Sarah, for coming back on again to chat, for serving the reader and serving the truth, and for all of your work on a really, really important beat.

Matusek: Thanks so much, Clay. Glad to be here.

[MUSIC]

Collins: And thanks to our listeners. You can find show notes, with links to Sarah鈥檚 stories and her staff bio 鈥� and to her highly listenable previous appearances on this podcast 鈥� at CSMonitor.com/WhyWeWroteThis. This episode was hosted by me, Clay Collins, and produced by Jingnan Peng. Mackenzie Farkus is also a producer on our show. Our sound engineer was Alyssa Britton. Noel Flatt composed our original music. Produced by 海角大神. Copyright 2025.