海角大神

Episode transcript

Erika Page: The more I report, the more certainty I have that there is some humanity left out there. And not just some, but actually a lot, and it isn鈥檛 powerless. 

[MUSIC]

Clay Collins: That鈥檚 Erika Page, a 海角大神 Science Monitor writer currently based in Madrid.

Erika has already joined us here on the 鈥淲hy We Wrote This鈥� podcast three times. She spoke about how she handled the Monitor鈥檚 Points of Progress franchise back when that was part of her work. She talked about her reporting from Uruguay on how democracy and discourse function well there. And she got us up to speed on the Swedish concept of lagom, the just enough life, one of my favorite episodes. 

I鈥檓 Clay Collins. Erika鈥檚 back this week. Hey, Erika!

Page: Hi, thanks for having me back.

Collins: So the reason you鈥檙e mic鈥檇 up for us again is to talk about your recent reporting from Mondrag贸n up in the Basque region of Spain.

Your story is headlined, 鈥淚n this Spanish town, capitalism actually works for the workers.鈥� It struck me in reading what you wrote about this network of cooperative business enterprises that this was yet another story from you on what I guess you鈥檇 call better ways of doing things. That鈥檚 a relative term and it鈥檚 a subjective term, but it鈥檚 almost loosely a series that you鈥檙e doing on success models, right?

Is that a kind of story that attracts your attention?

Page: I love that you say that, Clay, because it鈥檚 not necessarily something that I鈥檝e set out to do intentionally. But I guess I do tend to be drawn to stories that show what happens when a group of people are willing to think a little differently from the status quo. And then when people think differently, new ways of doing things emerge, and that鈥檚 definitely something that I saw over and over again when writing Points of Progress.

It was part of Uruguay鈥檚 history, which was actually filled with conflict and division before this culture of political civility began to take hold. And then you have Sweden, which is trying to figure out how this traditional value of lagom, or just enoughness, as you say 鈥� which goes against so much of modern economic thinking 鈥� 

Collins: Right!

Page: 鈥� can, can survive in the modern day.

And lots of people have interesting thoughts about what the world could look like, but it takes a lot of courage to actually try something out in practice. Imperfections and all, and to me that鈥檚 what this Mondrag贸n story is about. They don鈥檛 claim to have solved capitalism, but they鈥檝e put a model into place that their workers and also the people who live in these surrounding towns can actually feel good about.

And that says a lot in and of itself. And my sense is that鈥檚 part of what the Monitor is all about. It鈥檚 this looking for where creativity and ingenuity and humanity are in operation because once you start to look for these things, you kind of start to see them everywhere.

Collins: Right. Now, Mondrag贸n is not an entirely new story. You can find others have reported on it. You can see that in Google. But how did you think about carrying the story forward and how did you make it a Monitor story?

Page: I鈥檇 heard about Mondrag贸n as this model of cooperative business. And while I, for a long time, had been interested in how it worked, I鈥檇 never given it tons of thought. And then two things kind of converged at the same time.

One, I began to see more and more talk about how little faith Americans, and young Americans, in particular 鈥� and also people all around the world 鈥� have today in our economic system. And then, two, the Monitor began this series focused on trust, given this crisis of trust in so many realms of society. And so I began thinking, you know, 鈥淥K, what is it that would make someone want to trust an economy in the first place?鈥�

Page: And I think part of that has to do with feeling heard, feeling like the economic system that you鈥檙e participating in 鈥� for most people, that鈥檚 eight hours a day, day in, day out 鈥� that it鈥檚 actually giving something back, that it鈥檚 working in your favor. And it struck me that Mondrag贸n might be uniquely positioned to say something of interest about how to build that type of trust.

Collins: Hmm. 

Page: And obviously I鈥檓 not the only person who鈥檚 thought that and when I got to Mondrag贸n on that first day of reporting the first people I met were not workers at Mondrag贸n, but was a group of Belgian entrepreneurs who had come all the way to Spain specifically to learn about Mondrag贸n鈥檚 cooperative model and they were super excited to be there and it it was just this clear immediate picture of what happens when you do something differently, and it draws the attention of people around the world, and then it starts to ripple outwards?

Collins: Tell us a little about going up to that region, which for most people evokes mountains and maybe political separatism. What were your impressions when you rolled in from Madrid? What did it look like 鈥� and what was the vibe there?

Page: From Madrid, it鈥檚 about four and a half hours. And you realize you鈥檙e in the Basque country because all of a sudden you鈥檙e surrounded by lush forest and mountains on, on all sides. And so I drove down this hillside and into the valley of the city of Mondrag贸n.

And this town is Just nestled in this green, lush, mountain landscape. And you can tell that it鈥檚 an industrial city. 

Page: I mean, there鈥檚 definitely an industrial energy to it. You go to a lot of other small towns in the north of Spain, and I鈥檝e been to a fair number of them, and they feel either abandoned or like they鈥檙e on the cusp of being abandoned, and I think part of that has to do with the fact that even if there was industry in these places decades ago, it鈥檚 been hollowed out.

And so these aren鈥檛 places anymore where young people have opportunity. And that鈥檚 not the case in Mondrag贸n, and you know, Mondrag贸n being a cooperative, the worker members would never vote to move production to China or wherever it may be. And so these are still really vibrant communities. And you feel that the industry that鈥檚 there has lifted the quality of life for the people that live here in a way that, well, of course, some young people are going to move to big cities.

A lot of them are excited to continue living here and raising their families here.

Collins: Erika, how did you approach sourcing this story, just in terms of who you鈥檇 find on the ground, who you鈥檇 call in advance to get some context for your reporting?

Page: For every story, I think that can differ, but in this case, I started by reaching out to economists. I was really curious about where to place this cooperative model in the current understanding about capitalism and how it operates and its weaknesses and where the cooperative model might be able to fill in some of those gaps and maybe doesn鈥檛 live up to other standards in the capitalist system. 

Collins: These story types you cover call for sort of more than the standard caveating, because they鈥檙e so nuanced. And that鈥檚 important. Reporters have been tracking a bit of souring on capitalism lately. It鈥檚 not just, you know, Yes Magazine on as a system. It鈥檚 also more mainstream reports. You know, , a dawning recognition of the free market鈥檚 shortcomings. So when you go into a story like this, how do you capture a spectrum of perspectives and keep an issue story from becoming too binary 鈥� too sort of one side, other side? 

Page: One thing I love is when, in a certain story, there鈥檚 no obvious camp to throw what鈥檚 happening into. And I think that was the case here when you get to spend a little bit more time in the gray zones, kind of that muddy space, I think that鈥檚 where the really interesting ideas come out of. And in the case of Mondrag贸n, no one was quite sure if the whole thing was anti-capitalist, if it was capitalist, but kind of a kind, a kinder version, if it was semi-capitalist or what.

And to me, that鈥檚, that鈥檚 the beauty of it. It didn鈥檛 really matter how you label it. People just saw that it was a good idea because it was working. And so they kept doing it. And so that鈥檚 the kind of solution that when you speak to somebody on the left, And they say, sounds great, because it鈥檚 empowering workers and it鈥檚 creating egalitarian communities.

And then you speak to someone on the right and they say, wonderful, because you鈥檙e in a sense, you鈥檙e creating more capitalists, people who are deeply [invested] in their work because they actually own a piece of it. And so being able to leave some of that ideological baggage behind frees up space for that sort of solution.

And I spoke to economists on both sides of what you would consider the political ideological spectrum. And that was the response that I got from people. And so then I was able to go to Mondrag贸n with this curiosity you know, it seems like all of the experts think this is an excellent idea on the ground. What does this actually mean in people鈥檚 daily lives?

Collins: Wow: What does it mean when everyone wins? We got at this some when you were on here talking about the Points of Progress franchise that we both know and love, but what do you think about when you鈥檙e performing what amount to credibility checks on what, you know, seem to be episodes of progress?

In this case, you鈥檙e talking about now, it鈥檚 fairly unambiguous, but is this also where the Monitor values lens comes into play? 

Page: I鈥檓 not sure you always do know 100 percent that something is scientifically proven progress. Some things that perhaps once seemed like progress may not end up working out, or the efforts can be co-opted. For Points of Progress, the Monitor tries to keep the bar pretty high, right, in terms of tangible, measurable impact. But I do think there can still be really interesting explorations of cases where it鈥檚 unclear how something is going to turn out. And then as journalists, it鈥檚 our job to get the fullest picture possible about why something might be progress for some and not others. But I do think when you鈥檙e looking at the world through this lens of 鈥� take trust 鈥� how is trust operating here? How is it not operating here? And where is the desire for trust bringing up new ideas or new perspectives that leads you to places where you鈥檙e more likely to see this sincere search for progress.

Collins: That really gets at the universality and [at how] the answer, as you said earlier, is often in these muddy zones and not on one side or another. So, Erika, what are you working on next?

Page: I have a few trips that I鈥檓 hoping will work out, but I find that what I鈥檓 looking for more broadly speaking, doesn鈥檛 really change that much from place to place from the exact country or city where I鈥檓 reporting. I鈥檓 always looking for stories about the big ideas, the belief systems that affect all of us regular people and then often finding the reverse where regular people who didn鈥檛 know they actually had any kind of agency in the world discover that they do and I like being surprised and even when I鈥檓 not reporting on these 鈥減rogress-y鈥� stories as you say even when I鈥檓 talking with people about really awful things going on in the world from the violence in the Middle East to the farmers Just trying to survive the next day in India.

The more I report, the more certainty I have that there is some humanity left out there. And not just some, but actually a lot, and it isn鈥檛 powerless. There are countless people right now dedicating themselves to figuring out these terribly sticky situations, and even if it seems desperately slow from our standpoint, that鈥檚 important, I think, not to lose sight of, and it keeps me going at least.

Collins: Well, thank you so much for serially looking into these big ideas and then coming on here to talk about them. It鈥檚 always a pleasure.

Page: Thank you, Clay.

Collins: And thank you for listening. You can find more, including our show notes with a link to the story that we discussed in this podcast, and also to Erika鈥檚 other work, including previous appearances on this show at CSMonitor.com/WhyWeWroteThis. This episode was hosted by me, Clay Collins, and produced by Mackenzie Farkus. Jingnan Peng is also a producer on this program. Our sound engineers were Noel Flatt and Alyssa Britton, with original music by Noel Flatt, produced by the 海角大神 Science Monitor, copyright 2024.