海角大神

Samantha Laine Perfas: Welcome to 鈥淩ethinking the News鈥� from 海角大神. I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas, one of the show鈥檚 producers. Today we鈥檝e got the next episode of our series, 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥� hosted by the Monitor鈥檚 Jessica Mendoza and Jingnan Peng. There are so many different dialects of English, and we鈥檙e often told there鈥檚 a right or wrong way of speaking. But that鈥檚 not necessarily true 鈥� and embracing dialects like Black English can actually help communities thrive. Take a listen.听

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Jessica Mendoza: Hey, this is Jess, one of the hosts of this podcast. Just wanted to let you know that we talk about sexual violence and drug and alcohol abuse in this episode. Please be advised.

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Mendoza: Hey everyone, you鈥檙e listening to 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥� A podcast about how we sound, how we listen, and why that matters, from 海角大神. I鈥檓 Jessica Mendoza.

Jingnan Peng:听And I鈥檓 Jingnan Peng.

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Peng:听Today we鈥檙e going to talk about Black English. Alternatively called Ebonics, African American Vernacular English, or African American Language.

Mendoza:听They actually all mean something a little different 鈥� kind of like how the words 鈥淏lack鈥� and 鈥淎frican American鈥� are different, because not all Black folks are American or of African descent.听

Peng:听Right, and our focus today is Black English: the dialect of English that鈥檚 spoken by nearly 80% of US slave descendants of African origin.听

Mendoza:听For decades now, the idea of Black English as a legitimate dialect with its own grammar, sentence structures, and vocabulary 鈥� it鈥檚 led to a lot of controversy. In schools 鈥�

Mendoza:听鈥� in courtrooms 鈥撎�

Mendoza:听鈥� and in day-to-day life.听听

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Peng:听In this episode, we hear from two women who were shown over and over that speaking like themselves meant being looked down on by other people.听

Mendoza:听These are the stories of how they balanced the expectations of the people around them with the desire to be their true selves. And how, gradually, they embraced the power in talking Black.听

Peng:听This is Episode 4: Talking Black, With Pride.

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Mendoza:听Our first guest is Vivian Nixon. She鈥檚 worked in the racial justice space for decades. Right now she鈥檚 a writer-in-residence at Columbia University, focused听.听

Peng:听Vivian grew up knowing both 鈥渟tandard鈥� English and Black English. She was born and raised in Port Washington, on the north shore of Long Island 鈥撎�听

Peng:听And also books. A lot of them.听

Peng:听Vivian grew up in the 1960s and 70s. And it was made very clear that there was a line between being Black in private and being Black in public.听

Mendoza:听No one made that separation clearer to Vivian than her fifth-grade teacher, Mrs. Woodard.

Peng:听Vivian was one of only a handful of Black kids at her school. One day at recess, she was at the playground with her best friend. And Mrs. Woodard heard her say:听

Peng:听Back in the classroom Mrs. Woodard brought out two brown paper bags, one marked 鈥渃orrect鈥� and the other 鈥渋ncorrect.鈥澨�

Mendoza:听All the other kids got Tootsie Roll lollipops from the paper bag marked 鈥渃orrect.鈥澨�

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Peng:听Of course, Vivian would eventually get where Mrs. Woodard was coming from.

Mendoza:听Vivian didn't understand that until much later, though. Instead, after the incident with Mrs. Woodard, she became much more conscious about keeping her Black vocabulary at home. And it became a lifelong practice.

Peng:听That pressure to prove her worth showed up throughout Vivian鈥檚 life.

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Peng:听When we were talking to Vivian, Jess, it really felt like all these things were connected for her. Whether it鈥檚 how she speaks, how she behaves, or what career she should have 鈥� there鈥檚 this idea that if you don鈥檛 follow a prescribed path, then you鈥檙e not acceptable.听

Mendoza:听Right, and actually later on we鈥檒l hear more about how Vivian winds up wrestling with that feeling all her life. But the experience wasn鈥檛 unique to her. Our second guest today actually grew up around the same period. And she also lived with that sense of not being good enough. In her case she struggled to belong even within the Black communities she found herself in.

Peng:听Her name is Elaine Richardson.

Peng: Dr. E is a scholar of Black Language. And she calls herself a performance activist. Her goal is to educate and empower Black communities through both academics and art.听听

Mendoza:听Dr. E has always known what it was like to not be like everyone else. She grew up in a low-income Black neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio. And in that community, she felt like she stood out.

Peng:听Her mom had also lost job opportunities before because of the way she spoke. And so she urged Dr. E 鈥� or, Elaine, at the time 鈥� to speak 鈥渃orrectly鈥�.

Peng:听On top of that, a fight between her parents made Elaine feel even more out of place.

Mendoza:听That鈥檚 Dr. E, from听听that she did in 2016.

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Peng:听As Elaine got older, she began to lash out. Started cutting school.

Peng:听And so at that party 鈥�

Mendoza:听Elaine was just 13 years old. Her mother went with her to get an abortion.

Mendoza:听For just about a year, Elaine lived a double life: junior high school student by day, trafficked sex worker by night.听

Peng:听And the way people acted and spoke when she was working the streets 鈥�

Peng:听鈥� that only reinforced her negative self-image.

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Peng:听When the man trafficking her, who was also a teenager himself, got arrested 鈥� only then was Elaine able to get out of the life.听听

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Richardson:听To me, like it's all interconnected. Like your skin tone, your hair texture, how you talk, being sexualized as a girl. All of that is like how people are reading you and thinking about how to communicate with you.

Peng:听You know, Jess, one of the things we鈥檝e talked about throughout this podcast is how the way we speak signals all kinds of things to other people. And it can be really tough when you happen to speak in a way that other people associate with negative things. Whether it鈥檚 being poor or uneducated.

Mendoza:听Right, and you know, the flip side of that is, how other people see us also affects how we see ourselves, right? It kind of makes you question yourself. Like, maybe I am what they say.听

Peng:听Yeah, and I think Dr. E internalized a lot of it as a young person. But she and Vivian each come to discover the value and power in how they speak 鈥� in unexpected ways. We鈥檒l be right back.听

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Clay Collins: Hi, I鈥檓 Clay Collins, an editor here at the Monitor. I hope you鈥檙e enjoying this episode 鈥� and this podcast. Have you ever felt so pigeonholed by others, based on the way that you speak, that you鈥檝e actually altered your speech in response 鈥� even though doing so feels ... off? We鈥檇 like to hear your story. Drop us a note at听podcast@csmonitor.com. And if you know someone who would be intrigued by this episode, please share it with them. Thanks for listening!

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Peng:听Welcome back. So how do you cope with the idea that your way of speaking and being is not good enough? In the first half of our story, Vivian and Dr. E each struggled with that burden. And that, along with other challenges in their lives, led them to some hard places.听

Mendoza:听Vivian had given up her dreams of being an artist to fulfill her parents鈥� expectations 鈥� but the decision really weighed on her. When we last left her, she was serving time in prison on drug charges. It was a low point in her life. But being behind bars also gave her a chance to reconnect with her childhood love of books and language.听

Peng:听The novel is about Black identity and race relations in the early part of the 20th century.

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Peng:听When she got out of prison in 2001, Vivian joined College and Community Fellowship, a nonprofit that helps women who had been incarcerated go to college.

Mendoza:听By听. By 2006 she was executive director of College and Community Fellowship. She spent the next 15 years听.听

Peng:听In prison, Vivian had been openly exploring ways to use Black English in different spaces. And she tried to do the same when she returned to the professional world.听

Peng:听But at the same time 鈥撎�

Mendoza:听鈥� a lot of her work involved fundraising 鈥�

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Peng:听Back in Cleveland, Dr. E would also find her turning point 鈥� a moment when she realized that her way of speaking has value, after all. But first she needed a way out of the street life.听

Mendoza:听Finally, after years on the streets, and becoming a mother of two, Dr. E decided to prove it 鈥� by taking her mother鈥檚 most persistent piece of advice.听

Mendoza:听So Dr. E re-enrolled in Cleveland State, tried to get her degree.

Peng:听Again, she found herself struggling to fit in.听

Mendoza:听But Dr. E wasn鈥檛 going to be discouraged this time.

Mendoza:听She found the type of support she needed from a young Black woman who was tutoring her.听

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Peng:听So that story, Jess, really makes me think of how it makes a difference when someone chooses to hear what you鈥檙e saying instead of getting caught up in how you say it.

Mendoza:听Yeah, we鈥檝e said that a lot throughout this podcast but it鈥檚 still surprisingly powerful.听

Peng:听Yeah.

Mendoza:听So with her tutor鈥檚 help, Dr. E stuck it out at school. And she learned about a book that would change everything.听

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Peng:听This is听. He鈥檚 a scholar of Black Language and听.听听

Peng: And like any other dialect, African American English has its own grammatical structures, its own set of rules.听

Mendoza:听One example that linguists like a lot is the use of the word 鈥渂e鈥� 鈥撎�

Mendoza:听鈥� to mean habitual, or continual, action.

Peng:听Professor Baugh says enslaved people weren鈥檛 allowed to go to school, and so they learned English from the people around them.听

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Mendoza:听This was the type of history that Dr. E found in Geneva Smitherman鈥檚 book. And it blew her mind.听

Mendoza:听Ultimately, that revelation changed her life.听

Mendoza:听Dr. E got her Ph.D. in English and applied linguistics in 1996. She鈥檚 since done a bunch of work on African American rhetoric, literacy, and hip-hop. And she鈥檚 a recording artist, too.听

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Peng:听So Jess, I love how Dr. E and Vivian, they both came to affirm the value of Black English. But when we were producing this episode, you also pointed out that today, they each have different relationships with it. And they sort of advocate for Black English differently.听

Mendoza:听Right. And I mean I want to preface this by saying I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 like a single correct road, you know, toward dignity or defending who you are or how you talk. I think you kind have to find your own path to that. And so for these two women I think it sort of comes from their life experiences. Like, we mentioned before Dr. E considers herself a performance activist. And her style reflects that.听

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Peng:听It鈥檚 awesome that she鈥檚 there to set an example.听

Mendoza:听I know, she expresses herself very outwardly. Very much like a performer. And if you all want to learn more about Dr. E鈥檚 journey you can actually check out her book: 鈥�.鈥� There鈥檚 a link on our episode page.听

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Peng: And as for Vivian 鈥撎齱hat was it that she said that struck you?听

Mendoza:听Well, so Vivian talked a lot more about this internal struggle, right, to push back against these deeply ingrained ideas about what鈥檚 appropriate, what鈥檚 right, and 鈥�

Peng:听Yeah.

Mendoza:听鈥� what versions of yourself you鈥檙e allowed to present.听

Mendoza: And it鈥檚 not the same thing, but I鈥檝e had people say, 鈥淚 can鈥檛 believe you sound so American.鈥澨�

Peng:听Yeah, yeah. I get things like that, too. Like, 鈥淵our English is so good.鈥�

Mendoza:听Yeah, and I mean it鈥檚 very well meant. It鈥檚 usually a compliment. And I definitely don鈥檛 want to find insult where there isn鈥檛 any. But if you sort of pause to think about it, there can also be sort of an underlying equivalency there. Like my American accent sounds 鈥済ood鈥� therefore I must be smart or educated or whatever. And so the opposite would be, like if I didn鈥檛 have this accent, you know, if I didn鈥檛 speak this way, what would that have said about me?

Peng:听Yeah.

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Mendoza:听But anyway that was what was floating around in my head when Vivian was talking about, you know, learning to let out the Black part of herself, and kind of ignoring the conventions and expectations of whatever space she was in sometimes. And I don鈥檛 know, I just really liked that.听

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Peng:听Thanks for listening to another episode! Once again, a whole lot of people made this possible 鈥� and more made it shine. Dr. Elaine Richardson shared her TED Talk and her music with us. You can find her album,听听on her personal website, which we link to on our episode page.听

Mendoza:听And Professor Walt Wolfram at North Carolina State University and filmmaker Danica Cullinen let us use clips from their documentary 鈥淭alking Black In America.鈥澨�

Peng:听Also Vivian Nixon read us some of her own original poetry and gave us her interpretation of Paul Lawrence Dunbar鈥檚 鈥淲hen De Co鈥檔 Pone鈥檚 Hot.鈥� That last one didn鈥檛 make it into this episode, but we really enjoyed the conversation.听

Mendoza:听Thank you as well to Professors Katherine Kinzler and Sharese King at the University of Chicago for their insights on this issue. This episode was written, produced, and hosted by me, Jessica Mendoza.

Peng:听And me, Jingnan Peng.听

Mendoza:听The script was edited by Clay Collins, Trudy Palmer, and Samantha Laine Perfas. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt. Arielle Gray was our sensitivity reader.听

Peng:听This podcast is produced by 海角大神, copyright 2022.听 听