海角大神

Samantha Laine Perfas:听Today we鈥檝e got the next episode of our series, 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥� hosted by the Monitor鈥檚 Jessica Mendoza and Jingnan Peng, where we explore ways our accents and identities are intertwined. Did you know that legally, it鈥檚 okay for someone to discriminate against you because of your accent? Jess and Jing explore one such story, and the tricky world of linguistic legal limbo.听

Jingnan Peng:听This is Dominic Amegashitsi.听

笔别苍驳:听And he settled in Minnesota in 2003.听

Jessica Mendoza:听Dominic got a communications degree from a university in St. Paul. Started a career in leadership training. And these days, he lives in Wisconsin.听

Peng:听But throughout Dominic鈥檚 time in the States, there鈥檚 one thing he鈥檚 always been aware of: his accent.听听

Mendoza:听Sometimes it was just a little snag 鈥撎齭omething he knew people might comment on. Or they鈥檇 ask him to repeat himself more than once.

笔别苍驳:听But other times, it became a real issue. Like, once 鈥�

笔别苍驳:听鈥� Dominic was interviewing for a job as a training manager.听

Mendoza:听In short, Dominic did not get the job.听

[THEME MUSIC]

Mendoza:听Hello and welcome to 鈥淪ay That Again?,鈥澨齛 podcast about how we sound, how we listen, and why that matters, from 海角大神. I鈥檓 Jessica Mendoza.听

笔别苍驳:听And I鈥檓 Jingnan Peng.

[THEME MUSIC]

Mendoza:听Today on the show, we鈥檙e looking at what are probably familiar experiences: What it鈥檚 like to have trouble understanding someone, and what it鈥檚 like to not be understood. Especially at work.听

Peng:听Because we may not realize it, but a lot of the time, these types of interactions happen in a work setting. Or at least, in someone鈥檚 work setting.听

Mendoza:听Right. Like when an Uber driver talks to a customer, or a college professor is giving a lecture. And the people they鈥檙e talking to just don鈥檛 understand them. Whether you鈥檙e the speaker or the listener, that kind of exchange can be frustrating.听

Peng:听And so, our question: What happens when the way you speak gets in the way of work?听

Mendoza:听We follow Dominic鈥檚 journey to being more confident in the way he communicates. We meet his accent coach, who believes that communicating effectively is about a lot more than accent.听

Peng:听We鈥檒l also talk about unconscious bias, what the law says about accents in the workplace, and who gets to decide whether you鈥檙e understandable 鈥� or not.听

Mendoza:听This is Episode 3: 鈥淲hose Job Is It Anyway?鈥澨�

[MUSIC]

Peng:听So something you all should know about Dominic: He鈥檚 been speaking English basically his whole life.

Peng:听And so English is actually the country鈥檚 official language.听

Mendoza:听Of course, Ghana has听, including Dominic鈥檚 native Ewe. So English isn鈥檛 always used in everyday interactions. But 鈥�

Peng:听So when Dominic came to the States, he wasn鈥檛 worried about having to learn a new language. He quickly realized, though, that just because he could speak English did not mean he would be understood.

[BRIEF PAUSE]听

Mendoza:听This might be relatable to a lot of people. In 2018,听. That鈥檚 more than 67 million people.听

Peng:听We tried to get numbers on people with foreign and听, but that鈥檚 actually surprisingly complicated. Because 鈥� and we鈥檒l talk about this more later 鈥� so much of how people speak is based on perception. And that鈥檚 hard to track.

Mendoza:听Right. So we鈥檙e using speaking a foreign language at home as a sort of stand-in for how likely it is that someone has a non-American accent. (Remember, everyone has an accent. I even read somewhere that speaking without an accent听.)听

Peng:听I love that.听

[MUSIC]

笔别苍驳:听And so, that experience of not being understood might seem trivial. But it can also be really painful.听

Mendoza:听Dominic鈥檚 sister-in-law gave an answer. The woman asked her to repeat herself. So she did. And they did this several times.

Mendoza:听听Finally 鈥�

[PAUSE]听

笔别苍驳:听Dominic says the issue wasn鈥檛 that the lady asked his sister-in-law to repeat herself. It was how the woman said it. Like, it was almost accusatory. As if she was saying: 鈥淲hy don鈥檛 you speak better?鈥澨�

Mendoza:听Yeah. And I mean, I hate to have to admit this, but I鈥檝e definitely been that person. Not so much in face-to-face interactions because I鈥檓 too conflict averse for that. But you know, all those times I saw someone on TV or listened to a podcast and was like, 鈥淐ouldn鈥檛 they have found someone who speaks more clearly?鈥� You know?

笔别苍驳:听Yeah. Just a few weeks ago, actually, I was talking to a woman about the bus schedule. And I had to ask her to repeat herself a few times. And right after the interaction, I realized that I was feeling annoyed, even a little angry, you know, at how hard she was to understand. It was almost like this instinctive reaction.听

Mendoza:听Yeah. And it鈥檚 interesting because you also told me that you yourself put a lot of work into learning English.

Peng:听Right? Yeah, it鈥檚 鈥� somehow I forgot how much effort I put into that. Like I鈥檝e been taking classes since I was 2, you know, back in Beijing. And it鈥檚 a good reminder that whatever effort I make to understand someone within a short conversation might be nothing compared to all the efforts they鈥檝e made to make themselves heard.

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听Maria Ontiveros is a law professor at the University of San Francisco. She鈥檚听听on labor and employment law, including accent discrimination.听

Peng:听That reaction has real consequences, especially for people at work.听

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听So remember Dominic鈥檚 story at the start of the episode? He鈥檇 applied for a training management position and didn鈥檛 get the job, pretty much because of his accent.听

Peng:听We asked Dominic if he鈥檇 considered pointing out that he had worked in the industry before. And his previous employers didn鈥檛 have a problem with his accent.

Mendoza:听This reaction is very Dominic 鈥� he鈥檚 a glass-half-full type of guy. But even if he had decided to stand up to the interviewer, it would have been a hard road, legally speaking.

Mendoza:听Professor Ontiveros again.

Peng:听Like race, sex, and religion.听

Mendoza:听For example 鈥�

笔别苍驳:听鈥� and, listen closely here 鈥�

Peng:听I鈥檒l say that again: if an employer can prove that a certain accent, quote,听听with a person鈥檚 ability to do their job, that employer can justify discrimination. At least, in the courts.听

Mendoza:听Think about jobs where the stakes are really high when the speaker is misunderstood. Like 911 operator, or air traffic controller. In those cases, it鈥檚 pretty reasonable to expect the employee to be someone who can be easily understood by their employers, their coworkers, or people in their community.

笔别苍驳:听Right. But a lot of the time, we are not great judges of whether someone speaks clearly or not.听

Mendoza:听And this is where it gets tricky.听

Peng:听Katherine Kinzler is a psychology professor at the University of Chicago and special adviser to this project. You鈥檒l recognize her if you鈥檝e listened to Episode 2.听

Mendoza:听Because when I say someone has a heavy accent, that really just means I think that person has a heavy accent. But someone else might hear something totally different.听

[MUSIC]

Mendoza:听There are all sorts of things that go into this. One of them, like we said, is unconscious bias. So bear with us here, we鈥檙e going to get a little nerdy and look at a couple studies around this. OK, Study Number One. This one was done听

笔别苍驳:听What his team did was, they recorded samples of a native English speaker, someone born and raised in central Ohio. The script was based on a couple of New York Times articles. And they played it to a bunch of college students.听

Mendoza:听Isn鈥檛 that wild?听

Peng:听Yeah, I mean, it was the same voice. And so for Study Number Two 鈥� this one鈥檚 also really interesting. It鈥檚听. She brought in two groups of people. One group had shown bias against Korean Americans. The other group had not.听

Mendoza:听Each group had to play a game with this person, and it involved asking a lot of questions. And the study found that 鈥撎�

Peng:听When you hear that, Jess, it feels like common sense.

Mendoza:听I know.

Peng:听But somehow when we鈥檙e talking to someone with a different accent, we just assume that we as listeners don鈥檛 need to actively participate anymore.听

Mendoza:听Right? I mean, it鈥檚 so true. But, I don鈥檛 know, at the same time, I can still imagine people thinking: 鈥淚 do want to understand the person I鈥檓 talking to. But I don鈥檛.鈥� You know?听

Peng:听Mm, right.

Mendoza:听So what does it mean to actively listen? And how does that make a real difference?

Peng:听Well鈥� I have all the answers for you. Because we found someone whose job it is to help people communicate better. And we鈥檒l hear from her after the break.听

[MUSIC]

Clay Collins:听Just a quick hello at this break; I鈥檓 Clay Collins, an editor here at the Monitor. I hope you鈥檙e enjoying this episode of 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥�. Have you ever had a workplace experience in which your accent either was or may have been a factor? Or have you successfully navigated what could have become an issue? We鈥檇 love to hear about it! Drop us a note 鈥� an anecdote, or just a comment 鈥� at podcast@csmonitor.com. And if you did like this episode, please share it with someone else who would too. Thanks.

[MUSIC]

Mendoza:听Hey everyone, this is 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥澨齀鈥檓 Jess.听

Peng:听And I鈥檓 Jing.

Mendoza:听So before the break we were talking about how communication goes both ways. It鈥檚 the speaker鈥檚 job to try to make themselves clear and the listener鈥檚 job to try to understand.

Peng:听But what does it mean to actually do these things? Especially when the listener isn鈥檛 familiar with the speaker鈥檚 accent?

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听This brings us back to Dominic.听

Peng:听That was on Dominic鈥檚 mind when he graduated in 2008. So when he ran into Marlene Schoenberg at a conference that year, it seemed almost like fate.听

Peng:听Marlene is the president of Accent Wisdom. It鈥檚 a company that trains people to communicate better in the workplace.

Mendoza:听Marlene is very clear. Her work is not about 鈥済etting rid鈥� of accents. Instead, she says 鈥�

[LIGHT MUSIC]

Peng:听With Dominic, the first step was to figure out what he both wanted and needed to work on.

Mendoza:听For example, words with an 鈥淩鈥� sound.听

Mendoza:听And it gets even more complicated when that 鈥淩鈥� sound is combined with another consonant.听

[MUSIC]听

笔别苍驳:听So what we usually perceive as a foreign accent is really just the sounds of a person鈥檚 native language being layered on top of a different language.

Mendoza:听We wanted to talk to Dominic about this more, but he didn鈥檛 have time. He did say we could talk about his sound patterns to help folks understand accents better.

Peng:听Right. For me, when we were interviewing Dominic, I noticed that he sometimes pronounces the 鈥淴鈥� sound, 鈥渒s鈥�, as 鈥渟鈥� sounds. So words like 鈥渆xpose鈥� or 鈥渁ccent.鈥澨�

Peng:听Once I picked up on that, it became easier for me to focus on what he was saying, instead of how he was saying it.听

Mendoza:听It seems like it should be intuitive, this whole idea of listening for certain sounds in another person鈥檚 speech, but I don鈥檛 think it is.

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听So Jing, was there anything people had a hard time understanding when you first came to the States?

Peng:听Yeah! My name actually. So back in China, I introduce myself as Peng Jingnan, my full name.听

Mendoza:听Mm. And that鈥檚 your last name and then your first name.听

Peng:听Yup.

Mendoza:听Could you say that one more time?

Peng:听Peng Jingnan. But here in the US I shorten and anglicize it to Jing.听

Mendoza:听Right, Jing like jingle bells.听

笔别苍驳:听Exactly, but, you know, like half the time, when I tell people my name is Jing, they鈥檒l say, 鈥淛ake?鈥�, or even 鈥淛ane?鈥� And sometimes, I would repeat my name. They鈥檒l say, 鈥淥K, nice to meet you, Jake.鈥澨�

Mendoza:听Yeah, I鈥檝e seen that happen, even when we introduce ourselves to guests sometimes.听

Peng:听Yeah. And I鈥檓 thinking maybe it鈥檚 that they鈥檙e layering a name that they know, that they鈥檙e more familiar with, onto the sound that I gave them?听

Mendoza:听Mm-hmm.

笔别苍驳:听Or maybe, you know, they鈥檙e assuming that I have an accent, and that I鈥檓 mispronouncing a Western name. I don鈥檛 know.听

Mendoza:听We should do a poll, find out what people are thinking, right?听

Peng:听We should.

Mendoza:听But I mean this is also why hopefully we can help people learn to listen a little better.

Peng:听Mm.听

[MUSIC]

Mendoza:听OK, so we鈥檝e talked about what happens when the listener doesn鈥檛 engage, or doesn鈥檛 engage enough. Especially when they鈥檙e talking to someone with an unfamiliar accent. But that leads us to a couple other important questions: How much can the speaker really change their accent? And should they?听

笔别苍驳:听Right. And if your accent doesn鈥檛 change, does that mean you鈥檙e not putting enough effort into learning English?

Mendoza:听Turns out, it鈥檚 all kind of complicated.听

Peng:听That鈥檚 Katherine Kinzler again. She鈥檚 the psychologist at the University of Chicago.

Mendoza:听So if this isn鈥檛 the first time people are listening, they鈥檒l know I鈥檓 from the Philippines. And I鈥檝e talked about how my English has changed a lot in the past few years. Right? Like I definitely sound more American, I use more American terms, I pronounce some things differently. And my friends in Manila would know. For sure.

Peng:听Yeah. Like if I were hearing you for the first time, I would think you grew up here.

笔别苍驳:听But for most people, if you did not grow up speaking a language, you鈥檙e always likely to have traces of a foreign accent. It has something to do with the way our brains are wired.听

Peng:听But somehow so many of us still think that accents are changeable on demand. Like it鈥檚 just a matter of effort.听

Peng:听Basically, there鈥檚 a pretty big disconnect.

Mendoza:听Right. And that gap, that disconnect, is the source of that feeling of frustration we were talking about at the start of the show. You know, when someone speaks to us with what we hear as a heavy accent, we get annoyed, even defensive.听

Mendoza:听Maria Ontiveros again.

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听Things are changing some. The legal system is slowly figuring out that sometimes bias is masked as a communication problem.听

笔别苍驳:听That last bit 鈥� that鈥檚 actually the kind of work that Marlene Schoenberg has devoted her life to. She鈥檚 Dominic鈥檚 communication coach. And so we asked her for some final words.

Mendoza:听Marlene also says that it鈥檚 helpful to be specific.听

[MUSIC]听

Mendoza:听Dominic and Marlene have stayed friends over the years. Besides his work at Chippewa Valley Technical College, Dominic also works independently as a motivational speaker. And he鈥檚 taken what he鈥檚 learned from Marlene. And now he uses it in his work and his life.听

[MUSIC]听

Peng:听Thanks for listening! If you liked what you heard, please share this episode with your friends and family. Just hit the share button on whatever platform you鈥檙e on, or send them the link to our site: csmonitor.com/saythatagain.听

Mendoza:听We want to thank Katherine Kinzler, special adviser to this podcast. She actually writes about accent discrimination in her book, 鈥淗ow You Say It.鈥� This episode was written, reported, and produced by me, Jessica Mendoza.

笔别苍驳:听And me, Jingnan Peng. The script was edited by Clay Collins and Trudy Palmer. Additional reporting by Samantha Laine Perfas. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt. Additional sound elements from The Internet Archive.

Mendoza:听This podcast was brought to you by 海角大神. Copyright 2022.听