海角大神

Samantha Laine Perfas: Welcome to 鈥淩ethinking the News鈥� from 海角大神. I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas, one of the show鈥檚 producers. Today we鈥檝e got the next episode of our series, 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥� hosted by the Monitor鈥檚 Jessica Mendoza and Jingnan Peng. Throughout this podcast, we鈥檝e asked listeners to share their experiences. Today we talk to an expert about some of your stories and questions. Take a listen.

[THEME MUSIC]聽

Jessica 惭别苍诲辞锄补:听Hey, everyone, welcome to 鈥淪ay That Again?鈥�, a podcast about how we sound, how we listen, and why that matters, from 海角大神. I鈥檓 Jessica Mendoza.聽

Jingnan Peng:聽And I鈥檓 Jingnan Peng.聽

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Mendoza:聽Today, we鈥檙e doing something a little different.聽

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惭别苍诲辞锄补:听Over the past few weeks as we鈥檝e released episodes, we鈥檝e also been asking about people鈥檚 experiences when it comes to their accents, languages, and identities.聽

Peng:聽So we reached out to listeners, to friends and family, coworkers and people on social media. We heard some very interesting things.聽

Mendoza:聽Yeah, and we鈥檝e had some really good conversations, too. I鈥檝e had people reach out to me that I haven鈥檛 heard from in a long time just to say that they had experiences and stories about accent and language that they wanted to share, too.聽

Peng:聽Yeah, it鈥檚 like everybody has a story.聽

Mendoza:聽Seems like it.

Peng:聽Yeah. So today we want to talk about some of the questions and experiences we鈥檝e heard and also bring in someone who can give us a little perspective on them.聽

Mendoza:聽We called up Katherine Kinzler. If you鈥檝e been listening to the show, you鈥檒l know she鈥檚 a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago, and she鈥檚 been the special advisor to this podcast. Her book 鈥淗ow You Say It鈥� is about the biases we have around the ways people speak.聽

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Mendoza:聽Professor Kinzler, thank you for joining us.聽

Katherine Kinzler:聽Thanks for having me. I鈥檓 so glad to get this chance to chat with both of you again.聽

Mendoza:聽So one of the things that we鈥檝e talked about throughout this podcast is this idea of liking or disliking an accent. Some of our listeners had written in: Barbara from the Seattle area, wrote, she has a German accent. And she said that sometimes people tell her they like her accent and it surprises her because she doesn鈥檛 like her accent. We also had a woman named Rebecca, she鈥檚 from the South, and whenever she hears herself on tape, she says, 鈥淥h my gosh, do I sound like that?鈥� And I feel like that鈥檚 such a relatable experience. So the question here is, you know, what goes into our ideas of what is a likable or unlikable accent?聽

Kinzler:聽I think the idea of hearing how you sound and then not liking it can resonate with so many of us, right? And so part of that is just like self-consciousness. You know, I love when you both talk about that because you鈥檙e experts in the podcasting format. And then if you know, if you can then feel insecure, how are the rest of us going to ever do it at all? And I think whenever we think about liking and disliking, you know, we can have these ideas like, oh, this language is just inherently beautiful. And this one鈥檚, you know, not so beautiful. But actually, that more likely represents something about the cultural attitudes that are out there about different groups of people. And then you think you鈥檙e, you know, you鈥檙e processing this inherent beauty, but actually you鈥檙e processing societal attitudes.聽

Peng:聽So I can think, sort of like, people usually think French is a beautiful language. And German is not.

Kinzler:听搁颈驳丑迟.听

笔别苍驳:听I mean, I personally, actually, I think Spanish is really pretty. I think it鈥檚 prettier than French, but I know it鈥檚 my own opinion.聽

Kinzler:聽So but I think it would be really hard to find a consensus opinion among people who had no preconceived notions about those languages or those groups of people. You might have stereotypes about the French language or maybe Italian being beautiful, but then you also probably have a lot of stereotypes that you鈥檝e been exposed to about those cultures and that linguistic prejudice and other prejudices are often really wrapped up together.聽

Mendoza:聽Yeah, it鈥檚 interesting to develop that self-awareness, to pause and ask yourself: When I say beautiful, what do I mean? And where is that coming from?聽

Kinzler:听驰别补丑.听

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Peng:聽So we know that part of what you study is how babies and kids process accent and language. And we have a really interesting anecdote from someone who has lived in the US for a few decades as an immigrant and he says that when he talks to kids, they don鈥檛 seem to have a difficulty understanding him. But grownups do. Like if he goes to a kindergarten or elementary school kids would understand him just fine. But the school teachers and administrators don鈥檛. So, yeah, what do you make of that?聽

Kinzler:聽In a lot of my studies, I find that really early in life, kids are attentive of language and accent, and they see language as providing social meaning. Often they prefer familiar speakers. But what I think a really critical difference is between kids and adults and what I鈥檓 guessing this anecdote really illustrates, is that kids can have a preference for familiar ways of speaking, but they likely don鈥檛 have access to all of the sociolinguistic attitudes and prejudices that are out there. And so, you know, I think that they may be a little bit more flexible, malleable, open-minded.聽

Mendoza:聽Yeah. That reminds me of what you told us in Episode Two, which was about linguistic representation in the media. I really loved your metaphor of kids being, you know, a statistical calculator that absorbs things in the world. And then the more they鈥檙e exposed to a particular type of experience, the more they categorize that as right or wrong or familiar or unfamiliar, and then start to kind of overlay the biases or prejudices that we have.聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah. And I think for parents, you know, a lot of parents want to do the best job that they can in raising kids who aren鈥檛 prejudiced, who are open minded, right? But you have to realize that your kids are these statistical calculators out there in the world adding up all the instances of evidence that they see. And so they鈥檙e not just getting input from you at home, they鈥檙e also, as you know, as you explored, getting lots of input from the media. I love that you鈥檙e highlighting these amazing examples, but also probably a fair amount is, you know, not so great. And they鈥檙e watching patterns in the world of who has power and who doesn鈥檛 and who is seen as respected and who isn鈥檛.聽

You know, my 8-year-old has heard from me a lot about how I鈥檓 concerned about media exposure and the kinds of messages it鈥檚, you know, giving to kids. And so sometimes, she鈥檒l kind of roll her eyes and say, 鈥淚 know, mom, it鈥檚 an, it鈥檚 an older movie. I know that, you know, you might not like the messages you think it鈥檚 giving me, but I really like the music!鈥澛�

Mendoza:聽I could just imagine an 8-year-old being like, 鈥淯gh, mom.鈥澛�

Kinzler:听贰虫补肠迟濒测.听

Mendoza:聽鈥淵ou鈥檙e so behind the times. I already get it.鈥�

Kinzler:聽Yeah. You know, one thing I鈥檝e also noticed about kids and what they鈥檙e picking up on, you know, is we鈥檝e talked about so much of language learning is about your peers and about what you see as being valued by society, but it鈥檚 also by your peer group, like, how do your friends sound, you know? So anyways,聽聽which is spoken in a British accent.

Mendoza:听搁颈驳丑迟.

Kinzler:聽And you know, he鈥檚 a COVID baby. And so he just hasn鈥檛 had that much peer influence, I would say, you know? And so anyway, so he鈥檚 been saying a lot of things in a British accent.聽

Mendoza:聽So funny.聽

Peng:听奥辞飞.

Kinzler:聽Which makes me feel, you know, concerned. Is this kid watching too much Peppa?聽

Mendoza:聽Right, right.聽

碍颈苍锄濒别谤:听But also, you know, I鈥檓 kind of like, uh oh, is Peppa his peer? I mean. You know, maybe 鈥�

Mendoza:聽Does he need other peers?聽

Kinzler:聽Right? Yeah. Like, you know, Peppa鈥檚 kind of his, is she his bestie at this moment? I鈥檓 just, I鈥檓 just not sure. So, you know, we鈥檙e going to work on some more socializing with real people as, as the summer progresses and it gets a little warmer out. But yeah.聽

Mendoza:听驰别补丑.听

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Mendoza:聽It鈥檚 interesting, though, because this actually leads well into one of our other anecdotes, our former intern sent us a note about this. She says, you know, she was born in India, she鈥檚 lived in India, considers herself Indian, but she spent a lot of time in international schools and in the US. And so her accent now to a lot of other people, sounds American. And so to her, it鈥檚 like, well, that鈥檚 not how I self-identify.聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah. I mean, I think that the way you speak, your language and the accent you use to speak it or your, you know, your languages, they often reflect the voices that you heard as a child, right? So, you know, as you鈥檝e talked about a bunch, it can be so difficult to learn a non-native language or accent into adulthood. And of course people do all the time, but often the way that they speak will still identify them almost instantly as being somebody who learned that language as an adult as opposed to as a young child. It sounds like she鈥檚 reflecting the voices of her youth in her current way of speaking. But then there鈥檚 this flip side of it that people make all these assumptions about others based on how they sound, and you kind of infer somebody鈥檚 native group identity or native group affiliation, and that may or may not be how they see themselves, and it may or may not be exactly who they are today.聽

Peng:聽Yeah. So for our Episode Four, we talked to two women who are Black and who in their own way come to realize the value, the history behind Black English. And they鈥檙e pushing back against the idea that 鈥渢alking Black鈥� is, you know, broken English or wrong. I guess a lot of us grow up maybe having the conception or learning that there鈥檚 a single correct way of speaking English and other ways are wrong. So how can we begin to break this link of, you know, one way of speaking English is good and other ways are bad?聽

Kinzler:聽And I think what you said is just so important that people often just aren鈥檛 aware of this, you know, and I think part of this can come to the notion of something like, well, you know, I learned grammar in school and it鈥檚 often taught in a way like, you know, you should say this, you shouldn鈥檛 say this. Or if you鈥檙e learning a foreign language, you鈥檇 work on some grammatical rules. But I love talking to linguists who you鈥檇 think you know as an outsider might think would be the most into proper grammar. And in fact, linguists will tell you that grammar is what people say and what they hear, and language is constantly changing. So if everybody鈥檚 saying it like this, that鈥檚 how the grammar of the language works. And when you think about different dialects of English or of any language, any dialect of that language is equally good at expressing the, you know, the full range of human thought and communication. And there isn鈥檛 a right or a wrong way to speak. Different languages and dialects are really tightly wrapped up in different cultural experiences.聽

惭别苍诲辞锄补:听I think what I鈥檝e come to realize through this process of reporting this podcast has been it鈥檚 really about how you, your attitude towards people who speak a different type of English than you, right? Like this is our standard for our organization, for example. That鈥檚 fine, but there is this wall that you have to hit, and just like we are not going to shame people who do it differently.聽

Kinzler:聽I think that makes a lot of sense, this kind of value judgment and that that鈥檚 where the trouble lies. Like, imagine a kid coming into school speaking in a dialect of English that the teachers don鈥檛 value, or that you know that they鈥檙e the kid鈥檚 made to feel that they鈥檙e not as good or worthy or smart. And then imagine some other kid who maybe they come from the UK or some other place in the world where there鈥檚 not the same potential biases, and you could just imagine the kinds of reactions that somebody would have to a different dialect being really different.聽

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Peng:聽Earlier you mentioned that linguists would say the grammar is what the people say and what we hear. For example, when you go to like Whole Foods, there鈥檚 going to be a lane like a sign that says 鈥�10 items or less.鈥澛�

Kinzler:听惭尘-丑尘尘.听

Peng:聽Even though by standard grammar, you know, we would say 鈥�10 items or fewer.鈥�

Kinzler:聽Yeah, 鈥榗ause you can鈥檛 divide each item into into parts.聽

Peng:聽Yeah, yeah. But then because everybody says 鈥�10 items or less,鈥� I don鈥檛 know, is that 鈥� in a way does that become correct?聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah. Mm-hmm.聽

Mendoza: That鈥檚 so interesting. I never noticed that. It becomes part of the language over time.聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah. And it changes over time, right? And then that鈥檚, you know, that鈥檚 OK. Like, I love examples about older adults not liking the way that teenagers speak. And then, of course, realizing that when they were teenagers, the adults didn鈥檛 like the way they spoke and that, yeah, you know, that鈥檚 how we do it as humans.聽

惭别苍诲辞锄补:听Yep.

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Mendoza:聽So I wanted to turn it towards you a little bit, professor. I know you鈥檝e had a lot of personal interactions with language and accent as well, especially in parenting. What鈥檚 been your experience trying to get them to learn 鈥� it鈥檚 French, right?聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah, so I speak French and English, although I鈥檓 not a native speaker of French, but I have some extended family who lives in France, and so I learned it as a teenager. So I would say that, you know, my French is quite good, but I don鈥檛 sound quite native. And so, you know, around the time that I had my first child, she鈥檚 now 8, I was working on these research projects about the potential social advantages of a child being raised in a multilingual environment. We found that these bilingual kids and kids who were exposed to another language were better at taking the perspective of someone else than were some monolingual kids. And I think that in the US, we鈥檙e often just not thinking enough about that, right? Like if you look at statistics on second language learning in schools, they鈥檙e really not great. Of course, there are some schools that do it, but a majority of schools don鈥檛 teach languages other than English until kids are, you know, in middle school or high school, when they鈥檙e so much better at learning it as young kids.聽

Peng:听搁颈驳丑迟.听

Mendoza:聽You know, it鈥檚 interesting, something that I hadn鈥檛 brought up before, but like has been simmering in the back of my mind for a while is 鈥� how surprised I was actually the first time I realized that multilingualism wasn鈥檛 valued? In some ways it doesn鈥檛 surprise me. Right? But growing up in the Philippines, I think we understood almost implicitly that there was value in learning English, but there was also value in learning like other languages. I think there was sort of this understanding that you wanted to be able to have all of those in your arsenal. Like it looked good on your resume or whatever. And it just was sort of like I had to sort of pause for a second and think like, oh, I guess, yeah, there are spaces in the world where like, you know, if you know English, that鈥檚 really all you need and 鈥� or it鈥檚 perceived that way.聽

Kinzler:聽Yeah, and it feels like teaching a little kid more than one language. It鈥檚 like you鈥檙e giving them this superpower, you know? It鈥檚 so hard to get it later on, and then they just get it for free. They just learn it, whereas adults taking a foreign language class or, you know, kind of muddling through and it鈥檚 really challenging.聽

Peng:聽I just remember I had this Lyft driver who I remember. I think he speaks Twi, the language spoken in Ghana, and he has a little daughter. And he shared with me that during vacation time, when his daughter is at home, she would be speaking Twi with him. But then once the semester starts, she goes to school. She comes back. He speaks Twi to her, she replies in English. Somehow, even though he understands Twi, she chose to speak English to him. So I was just thinking about maybe some parents thinking about, like maybe the difficulty of having their children speak the non-dominant language.聽

Kinzler:聽One important thing to think about there is that probably the dad also understands her in English. And so from the child鈥檚 perspective, right? Like, she鈥檚 communicating, she鈥檚 socially connecting either way. And it sounds like, you know, the Twi is there, right? She understands him when she responds appropriately in English. It鈥檚 suggesting that she did understand what he said. But yeah, you see how our language choices reflect communication, but also social affiliation and bonding and the social environment that we find ourselves in and where we want to be.聽

Mendoza:聽One of the things that has really helped us in our reporting for the series really was your book, Professor Kinzler. So I鈥檇 love for you to have a chance to talk a little bit about it and tell folks to check it out.聽

Kinzler:聽Thank you so much. My book is called 鈥淗ow You Say It.鈥� I am so glad that you had the time to read it. And I love the way that you know your work focuses on real people鈥檚 lives and stories because language is so personal to all of us. We don鈥檛 realize the social weight of language in our lives. And when you know when you鈥檝e talked in the series about how we can be prejudiced against language and think that we鈥檙e just being a good judge of who鈥檚 a communicator or not, or not even realize that we鈥檙e doing it. And so I think this kind of awareness of the critical nature of, you know, language and accent and how much it defines us is really important to have out there.聽

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Mendoza:聽We really appreciate your help throughout this podcast, so thank you so much.聽

Peng:聽Thank you.聽

碍颈苍锄濒别谤:听Thank you all.聽

[THEME MUSIC]

Peng:聽We hope you enjoyed this conversation. Next time we talk about what happens when you physically lose your voice and technology鈥檚 potential to help us find ourselves.聽

Mendoza:聽That鈥檚 going to be our last episode. So if you haven鈥檛 listened to any of our previous ones or you鈥檝e missed a couple of them, please go check them out now. They鈥檙e on our website, csmonitor.com/saythatagain. You can also subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and Stitcher.聽

Peng:聽This episode was reported and produced by me, Jingnan Peng.聽

Mendoza:聽And me, Jessica Mendoza. It was co-produced with Samantha Laine Perfas.聽

Peng:聽The script was edited by Clay Collins. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt.聽

Mendoza:聽This podcast was produced by the 海角大神 Science Monitor. Copyright 2022.聽