海角大神

Disclaimer: Just a warning. This episode contains descriptions of drug use and violence, including gun violence and sexual assault. Please be advised.

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Samantha Laine Perfas: The U.S. justice system is complex. Many of us have ideas about its processes, its power, and its pitfalls. And over the past five episodes, we鈥檝e taken a hard look at what we think we know about who we lock up and why; how much we spend on this massive institution; and the people and communities the system has left behind.听

Today, in our final episode of the season, we ask: How do we chart a way forward?

This 鈥� is Perception Gaps.听

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I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas, and this is 鈥淧erception Gaps: Locked Up鈥� by 海角大神.

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Before we dive in, I鈥檇 like to take a moment to thank everyone who鈥檚 joined us on this journey so far. We鈥檝e loved having you along! And we鈥檇 really appreciate it if you could rate and review us on your podcast app or wherever you鈥檙e listening. We can鈥檛 wait to hear your thoughts.听

If you鈥檙e just joining us now, or want to learn more about the show, you can find everything at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps.听

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I want to start with a big takeaway we鈥檝e had from this season. It turns out that a lot of the issues facing our justice system today can be traced back to our tendency as a country to turn to incarceration as a solution to our problems.听

But over the past couple decades, policy experts, advocates, and the public have started to realize that maybe locking people up the way we have is not the only, or the best, way to go. There鈥檚 been growing support for justice reform. And the issue 鈥� maybe surprisingly 鈥� is one of the very few in America today that along .听

Sam: That鈥檚 Michele Deitch. She teaches social policy at the University of Texas at Austin. We鈥檒l be hearing a lot more from her later. But for now, her point is, there鈥檚 been a lot of discussion on both sides of the aisle about what our justice system could look like, if we centered it on something other than incarceration.听

What if, for example, we focused on why people commit crimes in the first place? Or, what if we asked the people involved 鈥� both the person who caused harm and the one who was harmed 鈥� what they thought they needed?聽

Today we鈥檙e exploring some of these questions, and talking to different stakeholders about their visions for transforming our justice system.听

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Sam:聽Reuben has spent the past 15 years working with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people. He鈥檚 got a book coming out in February about his research. We asked him: What causes crime in the first place?聽

Sam:聽But Reuben also noted that not all crime is related to poverty.听

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Sam:聽Everyone we spoke to for this episode touched on a similar theme, which is: We need to reimagine, to one degree or another, what justice looks like in this country. And that鈥檚 hard.

For some, it means rethinking how we house those we want to separate from society, so that those spaces are built to help people work through their issues. Others say it鈥檚 about making sure formerly incarcerated people can re-enter society in a meaningful way.

There are also those who say it鈥檚 about remaking the system entirely.听

Sam:聽We got in touch with Stacey and her colleague, because their lives show just how complicated all this can be. Both women have spent a lot of time behind bars 鈥� but also a lot of time trying to understand why. Why did they make the choices they did? Where did the system fail them? And what needs to change so that others don鈥檛 have to go through what they did?聽

Here鈥檚 Romilda, who serves as director of programming at Families for Justice as Healing, a Boston area nonprofit.听

Sam:聽Both women spent years cycling through prison in the state of Massachusetts. And neither denies that they鈥檝e caused harm to others at some point in their lives. But each has also been harmed, in deep and lasting ways. And they say that nothing about their experiences with the justice system really addressed any of that.听

Sam:聽And so for these women, the goal is abolition: to end the need for prisons entirely. Their vision involves creating spaces that address trauma and make room for reconciliation.听

Sam:聽In some ways, the idea is shocking. End prisons entirely? But Reuben Miller, the University of Chicago scholar we talked to earlier, said that to understand abolition advocates, we need to go back to the word 鈥渞eimagine.鈥澛�

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Sam:聽Reuben is careful not to take a stand on abolition himself. But there are people and organizations already trying to make it a reality. One coalition, from out of Los Angeles, is called , or CURB. They bring together more than 80 organizations, most of which are for prison abolition.

Sam:聽This is . She鈥檚 CURB鈥檚 executive director. Her vision sounds a lot like what Stacey and Romilda described. But to get that done, CURB focuses on the money.听

Sam:听搁别肠别苍迟濒测, and have led people to pay more attention to budgets. Amber-Rose, who鈥檚 been working in this space for years, says there鈥檚 now toward discussing prison abolition.

But not everyone鈥檚 on board. For those who are skeptical about closing prisons entirely, there鈥檚 a concern that the movement is advocating for ending prisons tomorrow 鈥� with no exit plan or path forward. Is that the case?

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Sam:聽Prison abolition may have gained momentum in recent years. But again, many people 鈥� including some who鈥檝e been in prison 鈥� are still reluctant to say incarceration has no role in our society. We reached out to who was formerly incarcerated and now works at the Texas Jail Project, a nonprofit in Austin, Texas.

Sam:聽Kevin served eight years of a 25-year sentence for the unauthorized use of a motor vehicle. This was in 1994, when sentencing policies for relatively minor offenses were much harsher, especially for people who had priors 鈥� which Kevin did. Today the maximum jail sentence for the same crime in Texas is two years.听

Kevin was released on parole in 2001. Throughout his time in prison, he says, he saw dysfunction. People鈥檚 mental health issues were hardly acknowledged. He felt the approach was 鈥榦ne size fits all.鈥� Kevin says those are things we seriously need to rethink if our society is going to continue to rely on prisons.

But the issue he spoke most passionately about was what happens to people after they鈥檙e released.听

Sam:聽Kevin鈥檚 experience isn鈥檛 unique. Reuben Miller at the University of Chicago said re-entry is often a huge challenge. All formerly incarcerated people in the U.S. face laws and policies that regulate what they can do once they鈥檙e released, for example 鈥�

Sam:聽Today there are that apply to people with criminal records. For Kevin, that made it really tough to find work. , parole policies are meant to monitor formerly incarcerated people, help rehabilitate them, and reduce the likelihood that they commit another crime. But:

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Jessica Mendoza: Hi everyone, I鈥檓 Jessica Mendoza. I鈥檓 a reporter with 鈥淧erception Gaps: Locked Up.鈥� Because of listeners like you, we鈥檙e able to devote time to a podcast that goes deep into the issues. So if you鈥檝e enjoyed this season so far, the best way to make sure we produce more work like this is to subscribe to 海角大神. If you already do, thank you! But if you haven鈥檛 subscribed yet, you can do that at csmonitor.com/subscribe. We really appreciate your support. Again, that鈥檚 csmonitor.com/subscribe.

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Sam:聽In our previous episode, we dug into another side of crime and criminality: the harm caused to the victims, and what they want out of the justice system. Do they want to see the people who hurt them punished in this way? Here鈥檚 Reuben Miller again.听

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Sam:聽This is . His own shooting was not his first encounter with gun violence 鈥� he鈥檇 seen it happen to friends, family, and others in his community in the Detroit area, where he grew up. But he didn鈥檛 fully comprehend the lack of support given to victims until he became one himself.

Sam:聽Later, Aswad was asked to testify against one of the young men who鈥檇 been arrested in relation to his shooting.

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Sam:聽Today, Aswad serves as of the Crime Victims for Safety and Justice program at the Alliance for Safety and Justice. The nonprofit works to make policy changes that reflect what people who鈥檝e encountered the justice system actually want to see.听

Sam:聽In 2016, the Alliance for Safety and Justice released the results of a national survey of crime victims.听

that by a 2 to 1 margin, victims wanted the system to focus more on rehabilitation than on punishment. They also largely preferred to see shorter prison sentences, and investments in schools and education instead of funding for prisons and jails. Because, they say, if you don鈥檛 invest in these things, it creates a cycle of violence.

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Sam:聽So far, we鈥檝e heard different ideas about how to transform the justice system so that it鈥檚 less punitive, more compassionate, and more equitable, from people who have firsthand experience. Some propose reforming pieces of the system. Others want to see an overhaul of the whole thing.听

For those not at the abolition end of the spectrum, there鈥檚 an understanding that, while prisons and jails may be necessary, they need to be drastically reimagined. But what would a place like that look like? To find out, my colleague Henry Gass and I called at the University of Texas at Austin. We heard from her at the very start of the episode.

Sam:聽Michele spent years before she started teaching at UT. , she led a team of experts, including formerly incarcerated women, in designing what they call a trauma-informed care facility for incarcerated women in Travis County, Texas 鈥� home to the state capital, Austin. The sheriff of Travis County, Sally Hernandez 鈥�

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Sam:聽Michele and her committee from local activists who said the money for the new facility should be put toward prevention services instead. The outcry delayed the project for about a year, but it鈥檚 now moving forward, albeit slowly. Travis County is in the process of procuring a designer for the facility.

In the meantime, the existing jail in Travis County 鈥� like so many others around the country 鈥� is struggling with the COVID-19 crisis. We asked Michele to reflect on the pandemic鈥檚 effect on justice reform and the way we view incarceration.听

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Sam:聽We鈥檝e dedicated this whole season to the U.S. justice system. And it鈥檚 true that a lot of its problems 鈥� like mass incarceration, racism, and inequality 鈥� are a reflection of the issues America faces today. But as Michele suggested, we can cast a wider net in our search for solutions. Crime, after all, happens everywhere.听

Sam:聽In 2016, Baz published a book called 鈥�.鈥� She went behind bars in nine other countries to observe how they approach justice. I asked her if she learned anything unexpected during her travels.听聽

Sam:聽Like Singapore, for example 鈥撀�

Sam:聽She also visited New Zealand, where the indigenous Maori use a restorative justice approach to deal with harm in their communities.听

Sam:聽Baz also went to Rwanda, a country still reckoning with the consequences of a civil war and genocide that occurred in the early 鈥�90s.

Sam:聽Sometimes those reparations came in the form of work, other times in money or material goods.听

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Sam:聽None of these approaches are perfect. The Rwandan effort, for example, has about flawed sentencing processes and political manipulation, even as it鈥檚 received international praise. And Baz says that the success of even the Scandinavian approaches, which are most often considered global models, need to be looked at within the context of those countries.听But her point is that what we鈥檙e doing in the U.S. today isn鈥檛 the only way to address crime. There are other avenues for dealing with harm, other means of pursuing justice. And Baz, like all our guests today, is challenging us to imagine those other paths and ask ourselves: How can we do this better?

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Sam:聽We want to close on a note about change. If there鈥檚 anything we鈥檙e taking home from our guests all season, it鈥檚 that the justice system we have today is damaged and damaging, but it doesn鈥檛 have to be that way forever. Change can happen, they told us, because it鈥檚 already happening.

Sam:聽Ultimately, whatever approaches we think are worth trying, the people who are most affected say their communities need to be at the center. We leave you with Kevin Garrett, the Texas advocate, and Amber-Rose Howard, the activist in California.听

Sam:聽Thanks for listening! If you liked this season of 鈥淧erception Gaps,鈥� share it with your friends, co-workers, and family! And if you鈥檇 like us to make more episodes, subscribe to the Monitor at csmonitor.com/subscribe. Because of your financial support, we were able to produce Season 2, so we鈥檇 love your help in producing a Season 3. Again, you can subscribe and support our work at .听

This episode was hosted by me, Samantha Laine Perfas. It was produced, reported, and written by me, Henry Gass, and Jessica Mendoza, with additional edits by Clay Collins and Dave Scott. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt. Since this is our last episode of the season, we want to give a quick shoutout to our fact-checkers, Noelle Swan and Judy Douglass, our sensitivity reader Arielle Gray, as well as our other studio engineers Tim Malone, Tory Silver, and Jeff Turton.听

This podcast was produced by 海角大神, copyright 2020.

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