海角大神

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Samantha Laine Perfas: Does the color of our skin affect our perception of the criminal justice system?聽

In 2019, the Pew Research Center conducted . They found that when they aske d white Americans if the criminal justice system treats Black people less fairly than white people, 61 percent agreed. But when they asked Black Americans the same question, 87 percent said the system was unfair.听

In other words, there鈥檚 a significant disconnect in how white and Black Americans think the criminal justice system works.听

That鈥檚鈥� a perception gap.

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I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas and this is "Perception Gaps: Locked Up" by 海角大神.

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Sam:聽Welcome back to Season 2 of the show. In our last episode, we took a big-picture look at the criminal justice system in this country. We learned about the history of incarceration and the impact it can have on families and communities. If you haven鈥檛 listened yet, we encourage you to go back and check it out. You can find all our episodes at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps.

Today, we鈥檙e talking about race.听

The survey we mentioned at the top of the show offers a pretty clear picture of how differently white and Black Americans perceive the criminal justice system. And that disparity exists almost across the board, from policing to parole to sentencing.听

For example, Pew that Black adults are about five times as likely as white adults to say that they were stopped by police because of the color of their skin. Black Americans also tend to be about gun violence and violent crime than white Americans. And a majority of Black Americans, 77%, said that minorities to get sentenced to death for a similar crime. Less than half of white respondents agreed.听

How is it possible for Americans to view what should be a shared, national reality so differently? Why does the gap exist so persistently along racial lines? And how do we even begin to bridge it?聽

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Sam:聽This is Christopher Scott. He served nearly 13 years in prison for capital murder. In 2009, he was proven innocent of the crime and released. He now runs the House of Renewed Hope, a nonprofit that helps exonerate other people who were falsely convicted.

We reached out to Chris because his experience is both extreme and representative. It鈥檚 not an everyday experience to spend more than a decade behind bars for a crime you didn鈥檛 commit. But wrongful conviction is a space in criminal justice where the racial divide is especially stark. One study published in 2017 found that exonerations involving Black Americans made up in the National Registry of Exonerations.听

Chris鈥檚 story starts in Dallas in 1997, with a phone call from a man named Claude Simmons.听

Sam:聽So, Chris decided to go see Claude. When he got to the neighborhood:聽

Sam:聽In fact, there had been a home invasion and murder in the neighborhood earlier that night. The police scanner had put out a description of the suspects.

Sam:聽Chris went on to pick up Claude. They got sodas at a nearby 7/11 and then went back to Claude鈥檚 house. Then the phone rang.听

Sam:聽Claude was wary, and told Chris to hang up. But when the police called again, the two men agreed to let them in.听

Sam:聽At this point, we asked Chris if he felt he had been profiled by the police that night.听

Sam:聽We want to take a moment to let that sink in.听

Chris was arrested, essentially, for being a tall Black man, with a dark complexion and a low haircut, in the wrong place at the wrong time. That winds up leading to some serious consequences for him, and we鈥檒l hear more about those later. But the point here is that for many Black Americans, just being Black means you鈥檙e a suspect, regardless of who you are, where you鈥檝e been, or what you鈥檝e done 鈥� if anything. And living that way can affect how people view the systems that are supposed to serve them.听

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Sam:聽Spencer studies how attitudes about social groups affect public opinion and political behavior. We talked to him about why it can be so hard for white Americans to see where Black communities are coming from when they talk about structural racism affecting their day-to-day lives.

Sam:聽Sometimes, getting those egregious moments in front of the public can make a difference and lead to change. It was the bystander video showing the killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer that led to worldwide protests against police brutality this spring and summer. The civil rights movement of the 1960s and 鈥�70s also drew a lot of power from two very public incidents of violence against Black Americans:

厂补尘:听This is , professor of political science and dean of the Graduate School at Duke University. Paula studies race and politics, and she says she鈥檚 hopeful that the George Floyd video has sparked something like the civil rights movement.听

But, like Spencer at Boston University, Paula says the racial disparities in the criminal justice system go much deeper than those most-publicized incidents. And it鈥檚 really hard for a person, or community, to internalize something they don鈥檛 experience.听

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Sam:聽To understand how deep the disparities go, we spoke with , who studies sociology and criminal justice at the University of Delaware. Yasser鈥檚 research looks at the different ways that American society was built for and around white communities 鈥� and as a result burdens and harms Black communities and other people of color.

Sam:聽By 鈥渙utcomes,鈥� Yasser means the disproportionate number of Black Americans who wind up behind bars. A 2020 report from Pew Research found that while only the rate of white Americans. In 2016, more than half of the prison population was Black in . Maryland, whose prison population is 72 percent Black, tops the nation.

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And it鈥檚 not only because Black communities are poorer, with less access to jobs and education,聽 and so more exposed to crime and violence. Black Americans are routinely punished more harshly than white Americans for similar crimes.听

Sam:聽This is , a writer whose most recent book explores how white authors, in their fiction, often segregate their white characters from people of color 鈥� just like in real life. Jess鈥檚 story about his friend, and his realization that a Black person would have likely had a very different experience, was one of the many reasons he decided to dive into this issue.听

Sam:聽Jess says that鈥檚 why it鈥檚 hard for many white people to believe that Black Americans are regularly treated with suspicion and force in a way that white Americans don鈥檛 experience.

For example, Black and white Americans use marijuana at , and yet Black Americans are more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession , even states where it鈥檚 legal. This is for as well.听

Today, as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to have devastating effects on communities, the disparities are becoming even more obvious. Here鈥檚 Yasser Payne again, from the University of Delaware.听

Sam:聽Yasser says all these different factors serve to maintain a structure of continuous disadvantage and prejudice against Black Americans. He points to Michelle Alexander鈥檚 鈥淭he New Jim Crow鈥� as a book that lays out how this oppression is seen clearly in our criminal justice system.听

Sam:聽Chris Scott, the man falsely imprisoned for murder, understands that viciousness better than most. When we left off on his story, Chris had just been arrested outside his friend Claude鈥檚 house. After spending in jail , determined to prove his innocence, he found himself in court, at the mercy of the system Yasser was just talking about. Chris鈥檚 jury was all white, his judge was white, his prosecutor was white, and his own attorney was white. There was still no physical evidence tying him to the murder.听

Sam:听础产辞耻迟 a decade into Chris鈥檚 sentence, a group of law students at the University of Texas at Arlington proved that two other men had committed the murder for which Chris had been convicted. And then, in late 2009, Chris sat through and passed a six-hour polygraph test, was declared innocent, and set free.听

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Sam:聽So far, we鈥檝e tried to explore how differences in experience can lead to gaps in perception. But experience is just one part of why it can be difficult for white folks to acknowledge 鈥� much less do something about 鈥� racial disparities and racism, especially within the criminal justice system. The other challenge is motivation. Here鈥檚 Spencer Piston again; he鈥檚 the political scientist at Boston University.听

Sam:聽He鈥檚 referring to the incident in May of this year when 鈥� no relation 鈥� while he filmed their confrontation on his phone. The video went viral, and led to intense discussions about the history of white people, privilege, and racism.听聽

Sam:聽That鈥檚 Paula McClain again, the political science professor at Duke. I asked her and Spencer the same question.

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Sam:聽Spencer鈥檚 point seems so simple 鈥� and yet it is so difficult to grasp. For me, it comes down to a willingness to be uncomfortable. As a white woman, am I willing to step into an arena knowing that I will probably mess up and say the wrong thing? Am I willing to commit to reflecting on and learning from those mistakes so that I grow in my ability to take action against racism? Or am I going to be defensive and say, 鈥業鈥檝e done my part,鈥� or 鈥榠t鈥檚 too much,鈥� or 鈥榯his isn鈥檛 my fault鈥�?

Jess Row, the writer we heard from earlier, interviewed a bunch of different white people for his book of essays on whiteness. And he started to see a kind of pattern in their conversations.听

Sam:聽As a white person, I recognize that it鈥檚 easier for me to step out of that space when it becomes too much or I get overwhelmed. And that鈥檚 a privilege that many Black Americans don鈥檛 have.听

There are some signs that things are changing. In the wake of the protests against the killing of George Floyd, showed that of Americans across racial and ethnic lines support the ideas expressed by the Black Lives Matter movement.听

Within the criminal justice system specifically, some research shows that racial disparities are declining. We called Thaddeus Johnson, who both co-authored a report on the subject and has personal experience in law enforcement.

Sam:聽Thaddeus left his police job to study criminology at Georgia State University, where he鈥檚 now an assistant professor in the department. He鈥檚 also a senior fellow at the Council on Criminal Justice think tank. I asked if his experience as an officer inspired his course of study.听

Sam:聽Thaddeus focused his studies on racial disparities inside prisons. Specifically, he looked at whether or not racial representation in state prisons had changed over time.听

Sam:聽This is the first time that we鈥檝e ever seen the Black and white racial disparity shrink 鈥� and for that reason, the report on made headlines when it came out in 2019.

But Thaddeus wants people to look beyond this one metric. For example, his findings show that while the rate at which Black people are being locked up is going down, the Black prison population is still really large. Sentencing lengths are one major reason. Thaddeus says he鈥檚 hoping his research can contribute to a fuller understanding of the way race and the criminal justice system intersect.听

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Sam:聽I really liked what Thaddeus said: that statistics aren鈥檛 just abstract figures. They represent real people. People like Chris Scott, who after serving an unimaginably long sentence for a crime he didn鈥檛 commit, is now helping others fight false convictions.

And if people who have a more personal stake in this can continue to believe that things will change 鈥� that through thoughtful work they can find and build common ground 鈥� then surely we can too. And the sooner white Americans make this connection and commit to doing something about it, the sooner we鈥檒l see progress in our country 鈥� as it turns away from racism and hopefully towards more equitable systems.

I want to end with something Paula McClain, the Duke University professor, told us about hope and change.听

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Sam:聽Thanks for listening, and we hope you鈥檒l join us for future episodes. Our next episode will explore the space where immigration and criminal justice meet 鈥� for better or worse. If you鈥檇 like to stay in the loop, sign up for our newsletter at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps. We鈥檒l include show notes, videos, additional articles, and behind the scenes takes from the series. Again, you can sign up for it at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps.听

And if you want to read more about Christopher Scott and his work to exonerate others, you can find my colleague Henry Gass鈥檚 feature about him and The House of Renewed Hope at csmonitor.com/innocent.听

This episode was produced and hosted by me, Samantha Laine Perfas. It was co-reported with Henry Gass and co-produced with Jessica Mendoza, edited by Clay Collins, Noelle Swan, Yvonne Zipp, and Dave Scott, with additional edits by Em Okrepkie, Jules Struck, Lindsey McGinnis, and Kelsey Evans. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt, with additional audio elements from the Library of Congress and the viral video posted by Melody Cooper on Twitter.听

This podcast was produced by 海角大神, copyright 2020.

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