Shimon Peres defends Israel's policies as vital to security
Q&A with Shimon Peres on Israel. The Israeli president says the Gaza blockade was put in place to protect the Jewish state from terrorism.
Jeruselem
Shimon Peres is the president of Israel. He spoke with Ed Sanders of the Los Angeles Times on Tuesday in Jerusalem.
Ed Sanders: As Israel prepares to ease the land blockade of Gaza 鈥� even though Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit remains in custody and Hamas is still in power 鈥� many Israelis have been asking whether the economic embargo over the last three years achieved anything tangible. Did it?
Shimon Peres: Israel wanted to tell the Palestinian people that (Hamas rocket attacks against Israel) would harm them. But with two reservations: first, that it not become a collective punishment and, second, that it not create an inhumane situation. So we measured everything. Is there enough water, enough food, enough medical supplies? I鈥檝e seen reports about the situation in Gaza and the narrative was extremely negative. But when you looked at the people, they dressed properly. The markets were full. It was a contradiction. It鈥檚 not by accident that there was not a humanitarian crisis. We felt responsible. But Hamas is the one who destroyed everything. That is being forgotten.
Sanders: But did the Israeli restrictions on civilian goods and supplies help further Israel鈥檚 policy goals?
Peres: I can鈥檛 answer that, and I don鈥檛 know if that鈥檚 even important. We鈥檇 hoped for more. We鈥檇 hoped that once out of there (after Israel鈥檚 2005 unilateral disengagement from Gaza Strip), we would be out. But once we left Gaza, we couldn鈥檛 understand why they were bombing us. We were seriously surprised by the reaction. I still don鈥檛 understand. If the rulers of Gaza would demilitarize and de-terrorize Gaza, there would not be a problem. The fate is in their hands.
Sanders: Some worry Israel is entering another period of international isolation. Turkish relations are on the rocks. The UN is pushing for an international inquiry into the May 31 flotilla raid. We鈥檝e seen cultural boycotts. At the same time, some Western allies are angry over Israel鈥檚 alleged misuse of passports in its spy operations. Is Israel losing its friends internationally?
Peres: The fact that (outsiders) are pressing us doesn鈥檛 mean that they鈥檙e right. There is an attempt to delegitimize Israel. It鈥檚 quite easy. The Arab bloc has a built-in majority in the United Nations. We never stand the slightest chance.
But I ask myself the following question: If they are delegitimizing Israel, who are they legitimizing? They legitimize Hezbollah and Hamas and Al Qaeda, too. They don鈥檛 mean to. But if you delegitimize the fight against terror, which is very complicated, the consequences are that terror is being legitimized.
Sanders: Isn鈥檛 that an oversimplification? Is criticizing Israel鈥檚 policies and practices the same as delegitimizing Israel?
Peres: Criticism is one thing. But when you say, 鈥淕o back to Poland. Go back to Germany鈥� (as American journalist Helen Thomas recently said in a widely condemned remark), that鈥檚 not criticizing. Or when they say Israel doesn鈥檛 have the right to exist, that鈥檚 not criticizing.
Sanders: That was one woman鈥檚 outburst. That鈥檚 not the kind of thing people mean when they talk about Israel鈥檚 isolation.
Peres: What would they like us to do? We agreed to a two-state solution. We agreed to ease the situation in the West Bank. We are easing the situation in Gaza. And there are still acts of terror. Countries that have to fight terror understand what we are doing. Countries that read about it don鈥檛 understand. It鈥檚 very hard for a person in Switzerland to understand. But the United States, they understand. We have a biography that no one else has. In 62 years, we鈥檝e been attacked seven times in an attempt to (destroy) us.
On the isolation of Israel, I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 true. There have never been better relations with the Vatican and Israel. Take India, we have excellent relations because they suffer the same thing we do.
Sanders: The U.S. has always been a friend too, but President Obama appears to be setting new terms for that friendship. He鈥檚 pushed Israel to stop settlement construction and signed a resolution calling for Israel to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty over Israel鈥檚 objections. Is this a new kind of friendship?
Peres: The friendship between Israel and America remains. Obama was fair enough to say that on some points he was mistaken. And we should say the same thing, on some points we were mistaken. To be friends you don鈥檛 have to agree 100 percent of the time on 100 percent of the issues. I don鈥檛 think this is a crisis.
The whole (tension) was about building or not building in East Jerusalem. The prime minister has said that we are going to build in places where we鈥檝e been building for 44 years (when the West Bank was occupied by Israel after the 1967 War) and refrain from building in those places we haven鈥檛 built in (for) 44 years. There are 21 Palestinian suburbs that we鈥檝e never built in.
Even now, in Silwan, the mayor wants to build (an archaeological park and retail center over the site of 22 Arab homes) and the prime minister called the mayor (in March) and said wait.
Sanders: The US is opposed to that project. Is building a park in East Jerusalem worth antagonizing Israel鈥檚 most powerful friend?
Peres: The mayor says this is his responsibility, and he thinks he鈥檚 doing the right thing for Arabs. But in order to do the right thing for Arabs, the Arabs should look on it as the right thing.
The American policy traditionally was that there are some places in East Jerusalem that we should not build in. But we built. There was an understanding that these unsettled areas will be settled in the peace agreement.
I think we should have behaved accordingly, namely to build where we have already built and not build where we have not. There was a clear distinction. We didn鈥檛 build in Arab suburbs. And finally, that鈥檚 what鈥檚 happening now.
Sanders: Some people have raised concerns about Israel鈥檚 democratic space shrinking. Polls recently suggest a lack of trust in courts. Half of Israeli school kids don鈥檛 think Arab Israelis should serve in the Knesset or have equal rights. Government critics, or those expressing different viewpoints, are sometimes subjected to personal attacks. As a founder of Israel, are you worried about the state of democracy?
Peres: The problem is that when you are in a state of war, and some citizens feel part of one side and some citizens feel part of the other, there are tensions in a democracy. But the fact is there are Arab members of the parliament, and they are outspoken like in no other parliament.
Don鈥檛 forget Israel is a very heterogeneous society. We鈥檝e come from the four corners of the world to build a people. We鈥檝e increased in size 10 times. So we don鈥檛 yet have the traditions and behavior that comes with time.
I don鈥檛 think there is any danger (to democracy). In 62 years and seven wars, there has not been a single day that we鈥檝e postponed freedom. People are not put in concentration camps like they are in some democratic countries. Even in the U.S., Japanese were in camps when you were at war with Japan.
Sanders: Some Palestinians have called Gaza one big concentration camp.
Peres: How? We left Gaza and didn鈥檛 leave any guards behind. Have you heard of a concentration camp that fires thousands of rockets at us?
Sanders: Tensions between Israel鈥檚 ultra-Orthodox and secular communities erupted again over the Emanuel school desegregation order by the Supreme Court. Where is the broader religious-secular struggle headed? Is this something that one day could tear Israel apart?
Peres: No. No matter what people declare, there is basic agreement that there is just one law in Israel, not two laws. It鈥檚 the law of the state. The (Jewish religious) law of Halakha is voluntary, but it鈥檚 not overriding.
Second, nobody can impose religion on anyone else. You can be Jewish, or religious or secular. The complication is not in the relation between the state and religion. It鈥檚 between religious parties. It鈥檚 there that the clash begins. But in principle, there is one law.
Sanders: Some ultra-Orthodox would agree that there is only one law, but they say it鈥檚 religious law that trumps the state.
Peres: If they want to educate their children in a different way, they can make a private school. The state will not pay for it. The law of the land is that all schools that are supported by the state cannot have any discrimination or any separate system of education.
Sanders: There鈥檚 renewed speculation and negotiation that the centrist Kadima Party, currently in the opposition, might join the government in a new coalition. Should they?
Peres: I think yes. When you have a difficult situation, unity is a good remedy. But it鈥檚 a very complicated political structure. The tradition for many years in parliament was that the major parties had the majority. It鈥檚 the first time a major party doesn鈥檛 have the majority. They have to negotiate with smaller parties. [Regarding Kadima joining the coalition,] I don鈥檛 think it will happen. I鈥檓 in doubt.
Sanders: People say the Labor Party in Israel is dead and the left wing, in general, is struggling to survive. Are they right?
Peres: That is an early judgment. In other countries, the difference between left and right is economic and social. In Israel, it鈥檚 been 鈥渢wo states鈥� (the position of the left) or 鈥渙ne state鈥� (the position of the right).
What鈥檚 happened is that the right has adopted the call of the left (by endorsing a Palestinian state). That鈥檚 confused the division. So the left feels they鈥檝e won ideologically, but they are not winning politically.
Sanders: How is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu doing?
Peres: My mentor, David Ben-Gurion, told me there is only one way to judge a leader: by the record and what he did. Netanyahu has two important things on his record. He agreed to a two-state solution, and by doing so brought an end to the ideology of the right wing, and he introduced what is being called the economic easing in the West Bank. That鈥檚 a serious record. I give him credit. I have been prime minister enough times to know that, contrary to the general perception that the prime minister runs the realities, it鈥檚 the realities that run the prime minister.
Sanders: Your role in Israel has evolved into an elder statesman. What do you see as your contribution today and your future political plan?
Peres: For 60-odd years, I was in administration as minister, prime minister, God knows. When people ask me where I spent my time, I answer: facing friction. Friction among people, among institutions, among parties. Maybe 40 percent of the energy of any prime minister is spent on facing friction...
I was a most controversial person. I had clear views, but they didn鈥檛 necessarily charm immediately the majority of the people. They accused me of many things. Now that I鈥檓 out of administration, I鈥檝e discovered an option that never existed. That鈥檚 the option of goodwill. Sitting here for three years, I鈥檝e hardly heard the word no. I don鈥檛 need administration. The principle of the presidency is not to run things, but to support...
I used to be the most controversial. Today, I鈥檓 the most popular. I don鈥檛 know which made me happier. I really don鈥檛 know. I like to confront. I don鈥檛 think leaders should please, they should move ahead. Leadership is not about being on the top. It鈥檚 about being out in front.
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