海角大神

From the beginning, California Rep. Adam Schiff has been one of the most outspoken proponents of a theory of Trump-Russia聽collusion among critics of President Donald Trump.聽Now, as special counsel Robert Mueller appears close to聽wrapping up his investigation, many Democrats are聽pivoting away from a narrative alleging a broad conspiracy聽between the Trump campaign and Russia to fix the 2016 election 鈥� but not Congressman Schiff. Instead, the Democratic chairman of the聽House Intelligence Committee is doubling down.

Mr.聽Schiff鈥檚 concept of collusion does not rest on a narrow聽reading of the federal conspiracy statute. Instead, he says,聽he is focused on what he calls 鈥渢he big picture鈥� 鈥� a聽willingness by Trump associates to work with Russia to the聽detriment of US national interests.

鈥淭here is ample evidence of collusion in plain sight,鈥� Mr.聽Schiff said Tuesday at a breakfast hosted by The 海角大神聽Science Monitor. 鈥淎s the weeks have gone on, that聽evidence has continued to mount.鈥澛燤r. Schiff sat down with reporters to discuss what may happen next in the Trump investigations and how the聽Democrats will wield power in Congress in the run-up to聽the 2020 presidential election.

What follows is a sampling from聽the breakfast conversation.

On Mr. Schiff鈥檚 view of collusion:

Mr. Schiff says the case for collusion stems from several聽interconnected events. He cites Russians reaching out to a聽Trump foreign policy adviser in 2016 to say that Russia had聽damaging information about Hillary Clinton; a meeting at聽Trump Tower between a Russian lawyer and top members聽of the Trump campaign who attended after being told the聽Russian would provide dirt on Mrs. Clinton; reports that campaign chairman Paul Manafort provided 鈥榬aw polling聽data鈥� to a former business associate in Ukraine with alleged聽links to Russian intelligence; and alleged contacts between聽Republican political operative Roger Stone and WikiLeaks,聽prior to the release of embarrassing emails hacked by聽Russia from Clinton campaign workers.

鈥淲hat I find equally troubling was that the president was聽trying to profit from the Russians during the campaign,鈥澛燤r. Schiff told reporters. 鈥淚ndeed, the Moscow Trump聽Tower project 鈥� which, according to the special counsel鈥檚聽office, stood to make Donald Trump and his family聽hundreds of millions of dollars and would have been the聽most lucrative deal of [Trump鈥檚] life 鈥� was concealed from
the public.鈥�

The committee chairman says the issue isn鈥檛 just whether聽the president committed a crime. 鈥淏uilding a Trump Tower聽in Moscow may not be a crime, but if it is the possibility of聽making that money that is directing US foreign policy,聽criminal or not, that is deeply antagonistic to our national聽security,鈥� he says.

On whether Mr. Mueller鈥檚 findings should be fully disclosed:

Mr. Schiff plans to push for full disclosure of聽the Mueller report and underlying evidence.聽The Intelligence Committee chairman said that his聽committee would fight hard for maximum release to聽Congress of evidence gathered by special counsel Robert聽Mueller and his team during the past two years.聽Members of Congress have been urging the public release聽of as much of Mr. Mueller鈥檚 final report as possible. But Mr.聽Schiff is turning up the heat in announcing his intention to聽seek broad access to investigative files and evidence聽compiled during the special counsel鈥檚 probe, including,聽apparently, grand jury materials.聽Justice Department regulations require grand jury secrecy.聽And the Justice Department frequently refuses to release聽information to Congress and the public that might undercut聽national security or hinder pending investigations.聽

Mr. Schiff told reporters that the Justice Department had聽made unprecedented disclosures of 880,000 documents聽during the past two years related to both the Hillary Clinton聽email investigation and certain aspects of the Trump-Russia聽investigation because the public interest demanded it.聽He said the same standard of disclosure should apply now聽that Democrats are wielding the oversight power.

鈥淚t will greatly facilitate our own investigation not to have聽to reinvent the wheel,鈥� Mr. Schiff said. 鈥淐ongress will have聽to recreate everything the Mueller investigation did, which聽will be enormously time consuming and, to some extent,聽not thoroughly possible.鈥�

On concerns about Russian聽meddling in the 2020 election:

鈥淚 think we are enormously vulnerable in 2020,鈥� Mr. Schiff聽said.聽The committee chairman raised concerns about the potential
for 鈥渄eepfakes鈥� 鈥� fake or altered documents, audio, and聽video clips that can do serious damage to a聽candidate before they can be debunked 鈥� particularly late in聽a campaign.

鈥淚f you alter the contents of a real email between two real聽people, you鈥檒l be able to corroborate as truthful certain聽portions of that: Those two people exist. Those two people聽were in email communication,鈥� Mr. Schiff said. 鈥淵ou can聽corroborate certain facts that are not forged in those two聽emails because they will resemble reality.鈥�

鈥淗ad the Russians done that in the weeks leading up to the election, it would have been impossible to disprove,鈥� he聽said.聽鈥淭he potential for mischief now is extreme 鈥� potential for聽mischief from domestic actors but also from foreign actors.聽And it鈥檚 really a technological race now to perfect聽deepfakes and to perfect the ability to detect deepfakes. But聽given how polarized our electorate is now, the ability to聽disprove a forgery is highly problematic.鈥�

On whether President Donald Trump should be prosecuted if he isn鈥檛 reelected in聽2020:

The guilty plea of former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, in聽part for violating campaign finance law, 鈥渕ilitates very聽strongly in favor of indicting the president when he is out聽of office,鈥� Mr. Schiff said. 鈥淚t certainly appears there鈥檚 no聽shortage of evidence.鈥�

鈥淚t鈥檚 very difficult to make the argument that the person聽who was directed and was coordinated should go to jail, but聽the person聽who did the directing and did the coordinating聽should not,鈥� he added.

On whether he agrees with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that聽Democrats should avoid impeaching Mr. Trump without bipartisan support:

Speaker Pelosi is 鈥渁bsolutely right,鈥� Mr. Schiff said. He did not rule out impeachment, but said the case against聽Mr. Trump would have to be 鈥渃lear and compelling.鈥澛營n the absence of such a case, he said, it becomes 鈥渁 partisan exercise doomed to failure. And I see little to be gained by putting the country through that kind of wrenching experience.鈥�

鈥淭he reality is that the Republican members of Congress,聽with very few exceptions, have been utterly unwilling to聽stand up to this president,鈥� Mr. Schiff said.