海角大神

Episode transcript

Stephen Humphries: Hi, I鈥檓 Monitor staff writer Stephen Humphries.

Aliens and UFOs have been making the news. In February, President Donald Trump directed federal agencies to release information about UFOs because, as he put it, of 鈥渢he tremendous interest shown.鈥�

It remains to be seen what, if anything, that information will reveal about whether we are alone in the universe. But I recently wrote a story about how humankind has been pondering that question. Since the late 1880s, science fiction has been shaping and reflecting how we imagine what 鈥渇irst contact鈥� might look like. You can find a link to my story in our show notes.

Depictions of aliens tend to tilt more to fear-inducing threats 鈥� like the one requiring a knockout punch by Will Smith in 鈥淚ndependence Day鈥� 鈥� than to cuddly interactions with imagined visitors like the Reese鈥檚 Pieces-loving extraterrestrial in 鈥淓.T.鈥�

E.T.: E.T鈥�phone home!

That鈥檚 why I got excited about 鈥淧roject Hail Mary,鈥� the Andy Weir novel that has sold millions of copies and sparked a lot of discussion. The story of an astronaut who meets an alien and befriends it, it鈥檚 now a big-screen blockbuster starring Ryan Gosling. I called Mr. Weir to ask what inspired him to write such a hopeful story. During my reporting, I also talked to two authors of non-fiction, science-based books about what contact with alien life might look like. We鈥檙e going to hear from them, too. These are interview excerpts edited for length and clarity. The bigger question I explored in my conversations was this: If we discover alien life, how might that change how humankind views itself?

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Humphries: The first call I made for my story was to Michael Wall, a writer for Space.com. Several years ago, he wrote a book titled, 鈥淥ut There: A Scientific Guide to Alien Life, Antimatter, and Human Space Travel.鈥� He set out to write about what鈥檚 potentially out there. At the outset of our conversation, Mr. Wall contextualized what such a finding would mean to humankind.

Michael Wall: It would be the biggest discovery of all time. I don鈥檛 think it would usher in a revolution, but it would change how a lot of people think about themselves and our species and our place in the universe.

Alfredo Sosa/Staff/File

海角大神 Chief Culture Writer Stephen Humphries outside the Publishing House on October 19, 2023 in Boston, Mass.

Humphries: While the movies tend to imagine that our discovery of alien life might be little grey beings walking down the ramp of a flying saucer, Mr. Wall says that the reality might be quite different and, well, far less dramatic. He wondered whether it would be more likely that we discover alien life not in the form of grey beings, but in something much smaller: microbes. Perhaps on Enceladus, which is one of Saturn鈥檚 moons, or Europa, which is one of Jupiter鈥檚 moons.

Wall: I also don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 very threatening for us to find microbial life. If it鈥檚 like, yeah, if it鈥檚 intelligent life, I think that鈥檚 something else. I think it would be more shocking and it would instigate more soul searching if we find a sign of intelligent life in the universe. But even then, I don鈥檛 think it would cause people to go crazy. I think people would be intimidated. They would be. Taken aback if we find something like a signal from a distant star or something, but also that鈥檚 still pretty abstract and pretty far away.

For something to be truly revolutionary, it would have to be like a visitation or something like that, like something lands somewhere and it鈥檚 obviously not of this earth. 鈥機ause now there is something here and it could be an actual threat because it鈥檚 right here. That鈥檚 obviously the least likely kind of discovery scenario. There鈥檚 a good chance we鈥檒l probably find evidence of past life on Mars or something or Enceladus or Europa. it鈥檚 very possible that we鈥檒l find that within the next, like, 20 years or so. And so I think that the [ground is] being laid for that, kind of, in the scientific community anyway.

Humphries: In the novel 鈥淧roject Hail Mary,鈥� the first discovery of alien life is, in fact, a microscopic organism. Like in his previous bestseller, 鈥淭he Martian,鈥� which was adapted into a movie starring Matt Damon, Weir tries to emphasize the science in science fiction. In 鈥淧roject Hail Mary,鈥� for instance, the story begins on Earth when Ryland Grace does a lab analysis of a single-celled microbe from space. The discovery of that organism results in Ryland setting out on a mission 11 light years away from Earth. And it鈥檚 there that Ryland first encounters an alien spaceship. When Ryland鈥檚 ship docks with the other spacecraft, he meets an intelligent being from the planet Erid. He nicknames it 鈥淩ocky.鈥� Mr. Weir told me about how he imagined what a life form might plausibly look like if it came from a planet with a high-pressure atmosphere that鈥檚 mostly ammonia.

Andy Weir: I am very trope-averse. When something rubs me the wrong way, it really rubs me the wrong way. Now, I don鈥檛 mind a good space opera story, 鈥淪tar Wars,鈥� 鈥淪tar Trek,鈥� 鈥淒octor Who.鈥� 鈥淒octor Who鈥� is, in fact, my favorite science fiction property. So things don鈥檛 have to be, like, super scientifically accurate for me to enjoy them. They have to be internally consistent. But other than that, I鈥檓 willing to just let it go. But my approach to science fiction writing is I try to be very... as scientifically accurate as possible. And there is no way on Earth that an intelligent alien species or any alien species would just look like a human with some forehead prosthetics and be completely comfortable in our gravity, atmosphere, radiation levels, atmospheric composition, everything. So I wanted my alien to be as alien as possible.I mean, because look at Earth. Even on Earth, even within our own biosphere, we have life forms that have completely incompatible environments. If you swap the locations of a shark and a camel, they鈥檙e both gonna die, right? So I wanted this to be as alien as possible.

Humphries: In a lot of science fiction, alien lifeforms are hostile invaders or deadly creatures such as those of the 鈥淎lien鈥� horror movie series. Close encounters of the far-too-close-for-comfort kind. What I loved about 鈥淧roject Hail Mary鈥� was that Rocky is perhaps the most lovable alien since Steven Spielberg鈥檚 鈥淓.T.鈥� Ryland and Rocky have nothing in common. No common cultural basis, language, biology. Yet they form a friendship and work together to solve a common problem. I asked Mr. Weir about how he developed that idea of bridging seemingly insurmountable divides.

Weir: They are both there to save literally their entire species. They鈥檙e like, let鈥檚 work together. Obviously. I mean, it seems pretty obvious. And then as for Rocky as for their kind of relationship. I sat down when I was making my alien species and I said, 鈥淥kay, so we have an intelligent life form. What do you need to have? What qualities does an intelligent life form need to have 鈥� or any life form need to have 鈥� to ultimately be able to make a spacecraft and, you know, and leave their planet?鈥� And I said, well, that requires a level of technological understanding that requires a society. You have to have a civilization. You can鈥檛 just have like one really smart creature build. You need a civilization, and to do that, you need to have language. So you can convey information from one to another. And you need to have tribalism. You need to have the concept of 鈥渨e are all going to work together for the benefit of all of us.鈥� You need to have a pack instinct, like humans do. You need to have language.

And a pack instinct means you need to have compassion. It means I care what happens to that guy. Even if something bad is happening, that doesn鈥檛 affect me, I care about that. And that becomes an evolved, like, selected-for trait, because if everybody in your society has that, then when something happens to me, they all come and help me. And so I decided that empathy, well, compassion comes from empathy. I find it hard to believe you could have one without the other. So empathy and compassion also have to exist because they鈥檙e a pack species. So now I know they鈥檙e gonna have language, empathy, and compassion. That鈥檚 like, if you have those three things, you have all the ingredients you need for friendship, right?

Humphries: Often science fiction stories about aliens are often just as much about humankind. I asked Mr. Weir about how 鈥淧roject Hail Mary鈥� portrays humans.

Weir: Well, I鈥檓 unabashedly optimistic. I mean, I really have a very high opinion of humanity. I always have. I think we鈥檙e pretty cool. It鈥檚 easy to get depressed and mired in the negative when you鈥檙e looking at the news, but I remind everybody the news is news because it鈥檚 newsworthy. People being bad to each other is newsworthy because it is rare. People are usually good to each other. And so if somebody slips on the street corner and breaks their leg, and seven complete strangers come around, make sure he鈥檚 safe, try to get him comfortable, bring him bottled water, somebody calls an ambulance, somebody says, 鈥渉ey, do you have any relatives I can call, anybody help you out?鈥� That doesn鈥檛 make the news, because it鈥檚 so overwhelmingly normal that it鈥檚 just expected. It makes the news if people don鈥檛 help.

Humphries: That concept of recognizing universal human qualities took on a whole new meaning to me in 鈥淧roject Hail Mary.鈥� Even though Rocky is an alien to Ryland, as much as Ryland is an alien to Rocky, they have in common what one might call a shared humanity. When we talk about humanity it鈥檚 a matter of qualities rather than biology. I shared that observation with Mr. Weir. Here鈥檚 how he responded.

Weir: I鈥檒l leave it to theologians to discuss what, you know, constitutes a soul. But I mean to my untrained non-theological agnostic viewpoint, if you鈥檙e an entity that鈥檚 capable of thought, language, compassion, empathy, and an understanding of right and wrong, a concept of morality that you understand, and can choose between, that sure seems like a soul. I think it鈥檚 a little bit outside of this, uh, former computer programmer鈥檚, uh...knowledge base.

Humphries: Others have certainly pondered the question of what it would mean to us, humans, if we discovered other beings with souls. I called Avi Loeb, an astronomer at Harvard University. He鈥檚 the author of a book titled, 鈥淓xtraterrestrial: The First Sign of Intelligent Life Beyond Earth.鈥� Dr. Loeb鈥檚 name is also one you might have heard mentioned a fair bit in recent months on social media. He鈥檚 the scientist who was making some pretty bold speculations about an interstellar object called 3I/ATLAS that did a fly-by of Earth earlier this year. Because of its trajectory and various properties of the object, he held out the possibility that it could be an alien spacecraft. The International Astronomical Union, the world鈥檚 largest professional body for astronomers, counters that 鈥渋f 3I/ATLAS were artificial, we would have detected it.鈥� The interest that the media and the public showed in 3I/Atlas led Dr. Loeb to make the following observation:

Dr. Avi Loeb: You know, 鈥渁re we alone?鈥� is the most romantic question in science. If we find a partner among the stars it will provide us with an emotional connection to the universe. If you look at the textbooks right now, and I wrote some of them about the universe, it appears as a lonely and cold place. The entities we discuss in the universe are made of matter, radiation. But we don鈥檛 have a connection to them, an emotional collection. However, if we do find the siblings in the Milky Way galaxy, some of them may be more accomplished than we are, we will derive inspiration from their accomplishments. We will connect to them if they visit our backyard. We might want to visit their backyard.

Humphries: Some have wondered, if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, what would be the theological impact? Steven Spielberg鈥檚 upcoming movie, 鈥淒isclosure Day,鈥� about the first contact between aliens and humans, explores that question through a supporting character who is a nun. Mr. Loeb had thoughts on that theological question, too.

Loeb: It will be a completely different perspective about our place in the universe and even have an impact on religious beliefs because it will appear as if God had more than one child, so to speak, and I don鈥檛 see any problem with that, because if you believe in God being capable of creating the universe, definitely creating other siblings in our family would make a lot of sense.

Humphries: Science fiction is a great vehicle to mull these sorts of questions - and reflect on our own qualities and values. But is there actually life out there in space? I鈥檒l leave you with something that Jodie Foster鈥檚 character, a scientist, said in the 1997 science-fiction movie 鈥淐ontact.鈥�

Jodie Foster as Dr. Eleanor 鈥淓llie鈥� Arroway in 鈥淐ontact鈥�: I鈥檒l tell you one thing about the universe, though. The universe is a pretty big place. It鈥檚 bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it鈥檚 just us...seems like an awful waste of space. Right?

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Humphries: This special episode of 鈥淲hy We Wrote This,鈥� featuring my interviews with Michael Wall, Andy Weir, and Avi Loeb, was produced by Mackenzie Farkus for 海角大神. You can find the story that I wrote using these interviews and others in our show notes. Our sound engineers were Tim Malone and Alyssa Britton. Original music by Noel Flatt. Copyright, 2026.