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Clay Collins: Welcome to Why We Wrote This. I鈥檓 Clay Collins.听

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Collins: Commentator Ken Makin was last on this show back in December. He talked about 鈥減eaks and valleys鈥� in terms of Black representation in Hollywood. Most of this encore episode is a replay of the conversation that he had with us then, because frankly, a lot of it holds up really well. We鈥檙e talking again now as we head into the weekend of the Academy Awards.

Hi Ken! Thanks for coming back.

Ken Makin: Clay, how鈥檚 it going?

Collins: Good. Let鈥檚 look at some Academy Award nominations and some films that got passed over. The 鈥淏lack Panther鈥� franchise update, 鈥淲akanda Forever,鈥� is up for five awards. The always remarkable Angela Bassett has been nominated for Best Supporting Actress.听

Makin: Well deserved.听

Collins: But it was a nope for 鈥淣ope鈥� by Jordan Peele. And Viola Davis did not get a Best Actress nod. 鈥淭ill鈥�, for all of its power and all of its cultural relevance, no nominations. So let鈥檚 start with Viola Davis, who of course starred in 鈥淭he Woman King.鈥� A decorated actor. Already has an Oscar for 鈥淔ences鈥� in 2016. An Emmy. Two Tony Awards. What鈥檚 your take on her being left out of the Oscar鈥檚 race this year?

Makin: It鈥檚 unconscionable. 鈥淭he Woman King鈥� certainly presented an element of triumph [for] Viola Davis. Her performance ran the gamut of emotions. Certainly there was strength. There was vulnerability. I thought she balanced all of those emotions very well. She has said in the past that colorism, she believes, has kept her from receiving certain roles in Hollywood. I鈥檓 just very disappointed in not seeing her receive that nomination.

Collins: Hmm. And then there was 鈥淭ill.鈥澨� There鈥檚 that point when Danielle Deadwyler, playing Emmett Till鈥檚 mother, talks about her son鈥檚 murder as being 鈥渢he business of us all.鈥� Another exhibition of such power and social confrontation of wrongs. Does the lack of Oscar recognition for that film really blunt the cultural impact? Does it mean more than just [that] fewer people might take the award as a cue to pay attention to the film?

Makin: Those snubs, it鈥檚 not just a function of prestige, it鈥檚 a function of power. And when we speak about that power, we have to understand, you know, contractual obligations ... negotiating. There鈥檚 a difference in saying 鈥淥scar winner from 2016鈥� versus 鈥淥scar winner 2022.鈥� And that鈥檚 the thing I think that is lost so often. Award shows basically are proximity to power: to financial power, to earning potential. And so for an actress such as Miss Deadwyler to miss out on that opportunity, you鈥檙e in some ways messing with her opportunity to get more roles.听

Collins: Ken, I want to yield to the earlier podcast conversation, in which you made some really interesting points about this particular arc of progress. What else would you like to say by way of updating that episode? Is it still peaks and valleys? And you know, frankly, are you hopeful?

Makin: I remain hopeful. Black people, like, we dictate the culture in so many ways, particularly as it relates to entertainment, and that influence is undeniable. I am also frustrated because the influence that I continue to speak about does not yield the awards from the institutions that have so much power in Hollywood. I鈥檝e spoken in the past about the power of the NAACP Image Awards and awards that celebrate Black artists, but also, you know, have a Black governing body in that way. But I also understand that the power dynamics are different when you talk about the Oscars versus the NAACP Image Awards. That鈥檚 something that we can鈥檛 trivialize, and that is why there鈥檚 so much disappointment when it comes to Black actors being left out of the nomination process, much less having an opportunity to win.

Collins: Well, I鈥檒l certainly be watching the broadcast with this conversation in mind, Ken. I just want to thank you very much for coming back on and for your contributions to the Monitor.

Makin: Most certainly and likewise, Clay. Take care.听听

Collins: Thanks again, Ken! Let鈥檚 now go back and listen to the conversation that you had in December with Samantha Laine Perfas for this show.

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Samantha Laine Perfas:听I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas. I鈥檓 joined by Ken Makin, a Monitor contributor and host of the podcast 鈥淢akin鈥� A Difference.鈥� Thanks for joining me, Ken.

Ken Makin: Sam, glad to be with you. How鈥檚 it going?

Laine Perfas: It鈥檚 good. So to start the conversation, I鈥檓 wondering if you would consider 2022 a 鈥渢ipping point鈥� in terms of diversity in Hollywood.

Makin: I would really look at it more as there鈥檚 a path to progress. But I would say there are more peaks and valleys. And one of the main things I always talk about when looking at Hollywood is I always look at fan response, and the fan responses to 鈥淭he Little Mermaid,鈥� for example, to Moses Ingram鈥檚 role in 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� and seeing some of the visceral and negative responses to that. Those are very troubling. It鈥檚 so problematic when I hear about fans who have an issue with 鈥淭he Little Mermaid鈥� being African American, like, understand these are fictional characters. And so what type of destiny does it create? What type of barriers do we create when we say that a fictional character should look this way or a fictional character can鈥檛 be this. At the same time, it鈥檚 great to see that same production studio, I鈥檓 talking about Disney, it鈥檚 good to see, you know, them speak out and rebuke some of those negative fan comments and such. And really continue to commit themselves to seeing diverse characters, not only diverse in terms of news stories, but even in retelling some of the stories that we love and that we鈥檙e familiar with, introducing characters of color, introducing Black characters. I think that鈥檚 very important.

Laine Perfas: You mentioned the 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� franchise, and actually back in June, you wrote about it that it has a long, complicated relationship with race, similar to Hollywood in general. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Makin: The challenge with 鈥淪tar Wars,鈥� I think historically, was seeing Black characters in prominent roles. And that鈥檚 something that here more recently, you know, we鈥檝e seen change for the better. In terms of 鈥淪tar Wars,鈥� I go back to Moses Ingram, who played Reva (Third Sister). It鈥檚 great to see 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� making a commitment to having Black characters as an integral part of the plot. And that鈥檚 something that, you know, we did not see previously.

Laine Perfas: I鈥檓 thinking about another genre of movies, and that鈥檚 the horror film genre. And Jordan Peele鈥檚 鈥淣ope鈥� came out this year, and you watched it and you actually did watch it two times to fully appreciate it. Could you talk about what happened there and what was it about 鈥淣ope鈥� that was unexpected for you?

Makin: Loved 鈥淣ope.鈥� I loved it the second time around. I can say the first time that I had an expectation to see overt analysis, whether it be an analysis of race or an analysis of class. 鈥淕et Out鈥� was a movie that did an exemplary job of looking at race and looking at it in a very nuanced sense. 鈥淯s鈥� was a movie that movie-watchers were expecting 鈥淯s鈥� to be like 鈥淕et Out鈥� and it wasn鈥檛 鈥� it was more of a class analysis. And so I was looking for that same type of overt analysis with 鈥淣ope鈥� and didn鈥檛 get it at first. And so in looking for that and in pursuing that, I really missed what Jordan Peele was trying to accomplish with that movie. And what Jordan Peele did, first and foremost, was that he approached that movie as someone who loves the genre of film making. And so there were callbacks to blaxploitation, there were callbacks to, you know, just some of his favorite directors. So when I went back the second time and watched that movie, I appreciated the attention to detail. And within that understanding that, hey, Jordan Peele did have cultural analysis, did have racial analysis. It just wasn鈥檛 something that was so overt. And in doing that, that gave him a type of creative freedom.

Laine Perfas: It was cool to see how Jordan Peele tipped his hat to other people in the industry who鈥檝e had a really strong impact. And I鈥檓 also thinking of another legacy this year that came to the forefront, and that鈥檚 of Chadwick Boseman in 鈥淲akanda Forever.鈥� You articulated it well when you said that movie in many ways was a love letter to Chad. How did that movie nod to his legacy as a Black actor?

Makin: What Ryan Coogler was able to accomplish in 鈥淲akanda Forever鈥� is to simultaneously show just what Boseman鈥檚 loss to that franchise meant, but also understand what it means to be the Black Panther. And what the Black Panther represents 鈥� that the Black Panther represents progression, however painful. And Coogler just, you know, captured so many ideas visually, politically, socially, and did that without ever trivializing or losing the fact that Chad was his friend first. It was so humanizing and yet it was just, you know, a celebration of royalty and of friendship and mourning in that same vein.

Laine Perfas: I think sometimes Hollywood and really the media at large have struggled to show loss in a humanizing way. And I know you鈥檝e talked in the past about how it also in some ways capitalizes on Black trauma. This year, also a movie about Emmett Till came out and you reviewed 鈥淭ill.鈥� How did you feel that movie tackled such a traumatic event with nuance?

Makin: 鈥淭ill鈥� was a challenging watch. Initially, I was very skeptical about going to see the movie. You know, I had attributed, you know, what you鈥檙e alluding to in terms of the capitalization of Black trauma. You know, I call it the trauma industrial complex, which that fearful element speaks to, that, you know, that trepidation. And so that鈥檚 what I felt. Certainly what changed for me was a statement that was made by the director, and the director committed to not so much focusing on the brutality and the trauma of Emmett Till鈥檚 murder, but looking at the strength and the dignity and the honor of Mamie Till-Mobley, who was Emmett Till鈥檚 mother. It just speaks to that continuing tug and pull of civil rights, which is something that you鈥檙e always going to have, that when you talk about civil rights, there is no progress without struggle, certainly.

Laine Perfas: Looking forward into 2023. Is there anything that makes you hopeful that the movie industry will continue to expand its offerings and tell more diverse stories?

Makin: What makes me hopeful is the clamoring and the presence of Black people; Black people on social media, Black people in the community. And it really just speaks to activism and conscientiousness. When you think about Black actors and the legacy of Black storytelling in Hollywood, that has been an arduous road. It鈥檚 a road that鈥檚 been traveled on for many decades. One of the things that makes me hopeful is that as we talk about, again, peaks and valleys, you can see the progress. You can see going from having no representation in Hollywood at all to having a limited and sometimes controversial representation to now having attention to detail and humanizing elements. I鈥檓 always hopeful because Black people throughout history, like we鈥檙e so creative and we dictate culture in that way.

Laine Perfas: Thank you so much, Ken, for sharing your thoughts today.

Makin: Thank you, Sam, for having me.

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Collins: Thanks for listening to this encore episode, which included material from a show that ran on Dec. 16, 2022. You can find all of our episodes at csmonitor.com/WhyWeWroteThis, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We welcome ratings and reviews. This episode was hosted by me, Clay Collins, and produced by Jingnan Peng. Samantha Laine Perfas hosted the December show. Alyssa Britton was our engineer in both cases. Our original music is by Noel Flatt. Produced by 海角大神. Copyright 2023.