海角大神

[MUSIC]

Samantha Laine Perfas: Welcome to 鈥淲hy We Wrote This.鈥� I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas. I鈥檓 joined by Ken Makin, a Monitor contributor and host of the podcast 鈥淢akin鈥� A Difference.鈥� Ken often writes commentary and covers cultural issues, including some of Hollywood鈥檚 biggest movies this past year. Today, we鈥檙e going to talk about Hollywood鈥檚 wrestling with race and diversity by looking at some of the movies he鈥檚 reviewed. Thanks for joining me, Ken.听

Ken Makin: Sam, glad to be with you. How鈥檚 it going?聽

Laine Perfas: It鈥檚 good. So to start the conversation, I鈥檓 wondering if you would consider 2022 a 鈥渢ipping point鈥� in terms of diversity in Hollywood.听

Makin: I would really look at it more as there鈥檚 a path to progress. But I would say there are more peaks and valleys. And one of the main things I always talk about when looking at Hollywood is I always look at fan response, and the fan responses to 鈥淭he Little Mermaid,鈥� for example, to Moses Ingram鈥檚 role in 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� and seeing some of the visceral and negative responses to that. Those are very troubling. It鈥檚 so problematic when I hear about fans who have an issue with 鈥淭he Little Mermaid鈥� being African American, like, understand these are fictional characters. And so what type of destiny does it create? What type of barriers do we create when we say that a fictional character should look this way or a fictional character can鈥檛 be this. At the same time, it鈥檚 great to see that same production studio, I鈥檓 talking about Disney, it鈥檚 good to see, you know, them speak out and rebuke some of those negative fan comments and such. And really continue to commit themselves to seeing diverse characters, not only diverse in terms of news stories, but even in retelling some of the stories that we love and that we鈥檙e familiar with, introducing characters of color, introducing Black characters. I think that鈥檚 very important.听

Laine Perfas: You mentioned the 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� franchise, and actually back in June, you wrote about it that it has a long, complicated relationship with race, similar to Hollywood in general. Could you talk a little bit about that?聽

Makin: The challenge with 鈥淪tar Wars,鈥� I think historically, was seeing Black characters in prominent roles. And that鈥檚 something that here more recently, you know, we鈥檝e seen change for the better. In terms of 鈥淪tar Wars,鈥� I go back to Moses Ingram, who played Reva (Third Sister). It鈥檚 great to see 鈥淪tar Wars鈥� making a commitment to having Black characters as an integral part of the plot. And that鈥檚 something that, you know, we did not see previously.听

Laine Perfas: I鈥檓 thinking about another genre of movies, and that鈥檚 the horror film genre. And Jordan Peele鈥檚 鈥淣ope鈥� came out this year, and you watched it and you actually did watch it two times to fully appreciate it. Could you talk about what happened there and what was it about 鈥淣ope鈥� that was unexpected for you?聽

Makin: Loved 鈥淣ope.鈥� I loved it the second time around. I can say the first time that I had an expectation to see overt analysis, whether it be an analysis of race or an analysis of class. 鈥淕et Out鈥� was a movie that did an exemplary job of looking at race and looking at it in a very nuanced sense. 鈥淯s鈥� was a movie that movie-watchers were expecting 鈥淯s鈥� to be like 鈥淕et Out鈥� and it wasn鈥檛 鈥� it was more of a class analysis. And so I was looking for that same type of overt analysis with 鈥淣ope鈥� and didn鈥檛 get it at first. And so in looking for that and in pursuing that, I really missed what Jordan Peele was trying to accomplish with that movie. And what Jordan Peele did, first and foremost, was that he approached that movie as someone who loves the genre of film making. And so there were callbacks to blaxploitation, there were callbacks to, you know, just some of his favorite directors. So when I went back the second time and watched that movie, I appreciated the attention to detail. And within that understanding that, hey, Jordan Peele did have cultural analysis, did have racial analysis. It just wasn鈥檛 something that was so overt. And in doing that, that gave him a type of creative freedom.听

Laine Perfas: It was cool to see how Jordan Peele tipped his hat to other people in the industry who鈥檝e had a really strong impact. And I鈥檓 also thinking of another legacy this year that came to the forefront, and that鈥檚 of Chadwick Boseman in 鈥淲akanda Forever.鈥� You articulated it well when you said that movie in many ways was a love letter to Chad. How did that movie nod to his legacy as a Black actor?聽

Makin: What Ryan Coogler was able to accomplish in 鈥淲akanda Forever鈥� is to simultaneously show just what Boseman鈥檚 loss to that franchise meant, but also understand what it means to be the Black Panther. And what the Black Panther represents 鈥� that the Black Panther represents progression, however painful. And Coogler just, you know, captured so many ideas visually, politically, socially, and did that without ever trivializing or losing the fact that Chad was his friend first. It was so humanizing and yet it was just, you know, a celebration of royalty and of friendship and mourning in that same vein.听

Laine Perfas: I think sometimes Hollywood and really the media at large have struggled to show loss in a humanizing way. And I know you鈥檝e talked in the past about how it also in some ways capitalizes on Black trauma. This year, also a movie about Emmett Till came out and you reviewed 鈥淭ill.鈥� How did you feel that movie tackled such a traumatic event with nuance?聽

Makin: 鈥淭ill鈥� was a challenging watch. Initially, I was very skeptical about going to see the movie. You know, I had attributed, you know, what you鈥檙e alluding to in terms of the capitalization of Black trauma. You know, I call it the trauma industrial complex, which that fearful element speaks to, that, you know, that trepidation. And so that鈥檚 what I felt. Certainly what changed for me was a statement that was made by the director, and the director committed to not so much focusing on the brutality and the trauma of Emmett Till鈥檚 murder, but looking at the strength and the dignity and the honor of Mamie Till-Mobley, who was Emmett Till鈥檚 mother. It just speaks to that continuing tug and pull of civil rights, which is something that you鈥檙e always going to have, that when you talk about civil rights, there is no progress without struggle, certainly.听

Laine Perfas: Looking forward into 2023. Is there anything that makes you hopeful that the movie industry will continue to expand its offerings and tell more diverse stories?聽

Makin: What makes me hopeful is the clamoring and the presence of Black people; Black people on social media, Black people in the community. And it really just speaks to activism and conscientiousness. When you think about Black actors and the legacy of Black storytelling in Hollywood, that has been an arduous road. It鈥檚 a road that鈥檚 been traveled on for many decades. One of the things that makes me hopeful is that as we talk about, again, peaks and valleys, you can see the progress. You can see going from having no representation in Hollywood at all to having a limited and sometimes controversial representation to now having attention to detail and humanizing elements. I鈥檓 always hopeful because Black people throughout history, like we鈥檙e so creative and we dictate culture in that way.听

Laine Perfas: Thank you so much, Ken, for sharing your thoughts today.听

Makin: Thank you, Sam, for having me.听

[MUSIC]

Laine Perfas: Thanks for listening. To find a transcript and our show notes which include links to some of Ken鈥檚 work go to CSMonitor.com/WhyWeWroteThis. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Samantha Laine Perfas, and edited by Clay Collins. Alyssa Britton was our engineer with original music by Noel Flatt. Produced by the 海角大神 Science Monitor. Copyright 2022.听

[END]