海角大神

Disclaimer: Just a warning. This episode contains descriptions of violence, including gun violence, murder, and suicide. Please be advised.

Samantha Laine Perafs: When a person is convicted of a crime in the United States 鈥� especially a violent crime 鈥� they鈥檙e usually sentenced to time behind bars. But what is the purpose of locking people up?听

A majority of Americans say prison should help rehabilitate offenders. But a majority of Americans also say punishment is a key part of our criminal justice system. Is it even possible to do both at the same time?听

That鈥檚 a perception gap.听

[Theme music]

I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas and this is 鈥淧erception Gaps: Locked Up鈥� by 海角大神.

[Theme music]

Welcome back to our second season, which is all about the U.S. criminal justice system. If you鈥檙e just joining us now, be sure to go back and check out Episodes 1 through 4. We look into the history of incarceration in America, what role race plays in the conversation, and why private prisons get such a bad rap. You can find everything at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps.听

Today we鈥檙e asking: What are prisons for?听

Polls from the past few years have found that a majority of Americans 鈥� 鈥� say the focus of prison should be rehabilitation. There鈥檚 been growing support , and the idea that inside our prisons and jails.听听

But at the same time, Americans have increasingly supported more punitive responses. that a combined 80% of respondents thought that the way the US handles crime is either 鈥渁bout right鈥� or 鈥渘ot tough enough.鈥� In 2018, that public support for the death penalty for murder convictions ticked up for the first time in years.

How can Americans simultaneously think that we need to focus on rehabilitating offenders, and also that we鈥檙e not punishing them enough?听

To find out, we turned to , the man you heard at the start of the episode. He was sentenced, as he said, to mandatory life without parole for a crime he committed when he was just 14 years old. That was in Seattle, back in 1992. In 2012, the Supreme Court ruled that changed Jeremiah鈥檚 life.

Sam: Jeremiah was released in October 2019. By then, he was 42. Throughout this episode, we鈥檒l hear from him about what it was like to have been locked up so young and for so long. His story will help us understand why it鈥檚 so difficult to bridge the gap between what we say we want incarceration to do 鈥� and what it actually does.

[Music transition]

First, let鈥檚 talk about the official reasons that prisons exist. Why do we lock people up?

Sam:听听This is . She鈥檚 a senior research analyst at The Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group whose goal is to build a more fair and effective criminal justice system. Nazgol laid out for us of the purposes of prison.听

Sam:听听Again, that鈥檚: rehabilitation. Incapacitation. Retribution. And deterrence.听

[Music transition]

Sam:听Jeremiah Bourgeois is a living example of how the prison system tends to achieve only its punitive goals. Remember: his brother was already locked up when Jeremiah attacked the convenience store. So the threat of prison didn鈥檛 deter 14-year-old Jeremiah from committing a crime.听听

And as we鈥檒l hear, once inside, he didn鈥檛 feel rehabilitation was in the cards for him, either 鈥� at least, not for a really long time. So what鈥檚 left are incapacitation 鈥� basically, getting locked up听鈥� and retribution.听

Sam:听While Jeremiah was growing up in prison, things like self-improvement, or making better decisions, or learning from his crime 鈥� those were the last things on his mind.听

Sam:听And that constant threat of physical violence was just one part of the struggle.听

Sam:听Jeremiah鈥檚 experience is common, almost standard, in the prison setting. Here鈥檚 Nazgol Ghandnoosh again, from The Sentencing Project.

Sam:听听And in the meantime, they鈥檙e in an environment that doesn鈥檛 exactly keep them away from criminal activity.

Sam:听This is , a researcher at the Urban Institute鈥檚 Justice Policy Center.

Sam:听The result is a cycle that falls far short of meaningful deterrence or rehabilitation, and again focuses on the retribution and incapacitation aspects of prison. In 2016, the Brookings Institution and The Hamilton Project that 77% of are rearrested within five years. And the more prior arrests a person has, the more likely he or she is to be arrested again. There are a lot of reasons why that happens, but according to Nazgol:听

Sam:听Back in Episode 1, we talked about incarceration鈥檚 ripple effect: how locking people up affects not just the person serving the sentence, but also their families and communities. 听听

What Nazgol is saying now is that those consequences go on long after a person has been released. According to a 2017 estimate, there are formerly incarcerated people in the U.S., not including those who are on parole. Among them, 鈥� higher than the national unemployment rate for any historical period, including the worst years of the Great Depression.听

[Pause]

Sam:听Now Jeremiah Bourgeois, our formerly incarcerated guest, may seem like an exception to the rule. Despite the violent nature of the crime that he was sentenced for, he鈥檚 fully employed today, as an independent writer and consultant on life inside prisons.

But actually, Nazgol says that his trajectory is not unusual for people who serve very long sentences.

Sam:听When we lock people up, we enter into a kind of social contract with them: they serve their time, turn their lives around, and prove that they鈥檙e no longer a danger to society. Once that happens, they鈥檙e supposed to be released. But what often happens to people like Jeremiah is they鈥檙e kept behind bars indefinitely.听

Sam:听Recidivism, by the way, is

[Music transition]

Sam:听Jeremiah鈥檚 story 鈥� which we鈥檒l get back to in a bit 鈥� shows us the way that prisons fail the people inside them. But remember, many Americans also say they want to see punishment and retribution for the actions that led to those individuals being locked up in the first place.

So now we鈥檙e going to look at this situation from a different perspective: that of the victim. What do victims and their loved ones want out of the system? And what changes would they like to see?

Sam:听Jennifer is a member of . The group provides support for those whose loved ones have been murdered by young people. They give each other room to air their pain and grievances with others who understand.

Sam:听NOVJM also advocates for the rights of crime victims and their loved ones. Because, Jennifer says, when crimes are committed, those who've actually experienced harm are regularly left out of the conversation. In many cases, they鈥檙e not even told about significant changes to the system that will affect them.

[Transition music]

Sam:听The justice system doesn鈥檛 only fail to meet its supposed goals; it also often leads to deep trauma for everyone involved.听

Sam:听The justice system is supposed to address crime, but in many ways it fails to support the victims of those crimes. On top of that, it creates trauma for those behind bars, leading to violence and pain begetting violence and pain.听

For a moment, let鈥檚 turn back to Jeremiah Bourgeois, and how his life was shaped by this experience.

[Transition music]

Sam:听We鈥檝e talked about those who have committed crimes, and the victims of those crimes. But there鈥檚 another stakeholder in the conversation about what prison is supposed to achieve.

Sam:听This is Andy Potter, executive director of the corrections and forensics officers union in Michigan. He鈥檚 also , a national organization that brings the perspective of corrections officers into prison reform efforts. Andy was a corrections officer for 30 years. He says that if the system were truly designed to rehabilitate and reform, then corrections officers would be in a position to do that.

Sam:听Andy also says that the prisons where he worked didn鈥檛 look like what we see in movies or on TV.听

Sam:听But at the end of the day, according to Andy, prison winds up failing the people it employs almost as badly as it does the people it confines.听

Sam:听Throughout his time in prison, Jeremiah Bourgeois鈥檚 relationship with his corrections officers was civil, at best. But over the years, Jeremiah says he began to empathize with them. He says they鈥檙e also casualties of the system.听

Sam:听In a lot of ways prisons, and incarceration in general, just don鈥檛 live up to their stated purposes.

But there鈥檚 a long-standing argument that prison isn鈥檛 supposed to be comfortable. Although Americans鈥� views around crime and punishment have softened over the past couple decades, there are still who think that the justice system isn鈥檛 harsh enough.

After all, we鈥檙e not trying to reward people for breaking the law or harming others. And there are plenty of law-abiding Americans who can鈥檛 find work, who need social services, who are struggling with mental health issues 鈥� who, basically, face many of the challenges that exist inside prisons. Shouldn鈥檛 we focus on them?听

I asked Bethany Young about this. She鈥檚 the policy associate from the Urban Institute that we talked to earlier in the episode.听

[Music transition]

Sam:听That鈥檚 Nazgol Ghandnoosh again. She pointed out that are in there for violent offenses: robbery, assault, or 鈥� like Jeremiah was 鈥撎齧urder. And there鈥檚 a lot less interest among policymakers and the public to try and reduce sentences for those kinds of crimes.

[Music transition]

Sam:听To Jennifer Bishop-Jenkins, the woman whose sister and brother-in-law were murdered in 1990, that nuance is incredibly important in justice reform efforts. The case that she mentioned earlier 鈥� Miller v. Alabama 鈥� is the same Supreme Court ruling that led to Jeremiah Bourgeois getting released from prison. Jennifer doesn鈥檛 disagree with the spirit of the decision 鈥� the idea that juveniles should be treated differently than adults. But meaningful justice reform, she says, still needs to account for the harm that was caused to others.

Sam:听Jennifer says she believes her sister鈥檚 killer 鈥� 鈥� is one of those who will likely always be a danger to society.听

Sam:听At one point, Jennifer says she offered her sister鈥檚 killer a chance to sit down with her and talk about the crime.

Sam:听Jennifer recognizes that there are plenty of people who do want to change. People like Jeremiah Bourgeois, who 鈥� despite the system鈥檚 flaws 鈥� is finding a path toward redemption.听

Sam:听In all, Jeremiah spent 27 years behind bars. Since getting out in late 2019, he鈥檚 continued that work, trying to improve prison life and prepare the incarcerated for release. And he says he hopes to make the public more aware of why they should care about what goes on behind bars.听

Sam:听Before we close out the episode, we want to go back to Andy Potter, the former corrections officer and union leader from Michigan. He talked to us about what he thinks prisons are really built to do, and how the COVID-19 pandemic especially, is an opportunity to reevaluate those purposes.听

Sam:听In our next and final episode, we鈥檒l dig more into what Andy鈥檚 talking about in terms of where we go from here: How do we address the challenges we鈥檝e discussed today and throughout the season? How can we reimagine the justice system in a way that meets the needs of different stakeholders? And can we find solutions to the system鈥檚 most pressing problems in a way that puts humanity and dignity at the center?

For now, we鈥檒l leave you with Jeremiah, and what he thinks it鈥檒l take to transform the criminal justice system.听

[Music transition]

Sam:听Thanks for joining us. Like I said before, our next episode will be our last of the season. If you鈥檇 like to stay in the loop, sign up for our newsletter at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps. We鈥檒l include show notes, videos, additional articles, and behind the scenes takes from the series. Again, you can sign up for it at csmonitor.com/perceptiongaps.听

This episode was hosted by me, Samantha Laine Perfas. It was produced, reported, and written by me, Henry Gass, and Jessica Mendoza, with additional edits by Clay Collins and Mark Sappenfield. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt.

This podcast was produced by 海角大神, copyright 2020.

听[End]