海角大神

Episode transcript

Episode transcript 

Peter Rainer: The thing that really resonates for me as a film critic is not so much praising a film that everybody loves... But if you can direct an audience to a film that they might not normally know about or even feel that they care about, that, to me, is what it鈥檚 all about, ultimately.  

Clay Collins: 鈥奣hat鈥檚 the Monitor鈥檚 Peter Rainer. In 2023, Peter joined this podcast just after the Toronto International Film Festival to discuss that year鈥檚 films 鈥�  and to talk about his approach as a reviewer. We鈥檝e edited down that episode to preserve just the latter portion. You can find his written report about the films at this year鈥檚 Toronto festival at CSMonitor.com.

Peter鈥檚 been writing about film for the Monitor since 2006, a three time L. A. Press Club Award winner and the author of the 2013 book 鈥淩ainer on Film.鈥� He was a 1998 finalist for the Pulitzer in Criticism while writing for New Times, then a Los Angeles Weekly.

Peter can regularly be heard on the show 鈥淔ilm Week鈥� on the old NPR affiliate KPCC FM. It鈥檚 now called LAist. The writer and a co-producer of A&E film biographies of both Sidney Poitier and the Hustons, he sits on film critics societies and associations on both U.S. coasts. 

This is 鈥淲hy We Wrote This.鈥� I鈥檓 Clay Collins, Peter joins us today. Hey, Peter!

Peter Rainer: Hi, Clay.

Collins: You鈥檙e a font of great stories about film, not just the written ones, but also anecdotal ones. As a film writer, you鈥檙e a curator for our audience, really, and when you see a festival鈥檚 catalog, how do you go about selecting a set that you want to tell people about?

Rainer: If you just look at the program catalog, every movie is a masterpiece. So there are several ways that you can do it. One is that you say, well, I know this actor, I want to see a film with this actor, or this director, or writer, or subject. And you just sort of ... do that. I mean, there are some movies that are kind of obligatory to see anyway, because of advance buzz or whatever, so that鈥檚 kind of a given. But then you鈥檙e sort of on your own to some extent with the rest of it, and I try in these festivals to look at films that I think Monitor readers and myself would be most interested in long term. 

My general rule of thumb: If you鈥檙e just a civilian or even a critic in the wild and you go into a festival and you don鈥檛 really know what to see, it鈥檚 a better bet to try to choose documentaries over fiction films, because documentaries tend to be made by people who have a real passion for the subject. They know they鈥檙e not going to make much money from it. There are no movie stars, they had to scrimp and save for years to make this film. And therefore it stands a good chance of being interesting.

Even if the film isn鈥檛 particularly well made or whatever, often the subject is really interesting. And ultimately I think that鈥檚 more valuable than just a lot of fancy cinematography.

Collins: Yeah. I want to get to how you match [films] to the Monitor audience in particular, but first I want to ask, you鈥檝e been a festival jurist, I think in Venice and elsewhere. How do those experiences compare?

Rainer: Well, it鈥檚 very different if you鈥檙e on a jury, as opposed to covering the festivals as a critic. Because when you鈥檙e on the jury, there are films that are in competition and those are the films that you watch because those are the ones you vote on. There are many, many films, hundreds often in a festival that are not up for competition for one reason or another. It depends on the festival: There can be anywhere from 15 to 40 films that you have to see as a jurist. 

And I sit through all films anyway, as a critic. I don鈥檛 walk out unless it鈥檚 really terrible and I have to see something else at the same time. A lot of critics pop in and out of screenings. I can鈥檛 do that. 

But as a jurist, there鈥檚 like a hall monitor who basically watches you to make sure you don鈥檛 leave. So you see all those films and then you have a preliminary vote with the jury and then a final vote. The festival director usually kind of is on the sidelines. They鈥檙e not supposed to interfere with your choices, but in my experience they often try to influence the jury in some way. Suddenly one of the jurors mysteriously likes a movie that he or she didn鈥檛 like before, and changes the vote, or you get a better hotel room, you get better perks. But the thing as a juror is, it鈥檚 the same thing as a critic. You can鈥檛 be swayed by any of this, because a lot of this is meant to kind of dazzle you and maybe make you vote a certain way.

Collins: You鈥檝e written for a number of major outlets, so I want to ask you what鈥檚 different about doing film criticism for 海角大神, besides that documentaries and foreign films are probably often a good bet.

Rainer: For one thing, I can be pretty selective with the Monitor in ways that I often wasn鈥檛 with other outlets where you have to cover a lot of movies that are basically there to be reviewed because they鈥檙e there, but they鈥檙e not especially noteworthy or good. So that鈥檚 a real boon. I鈥檓 always aware of, for want of a better word, the humanistic element in film. I think that ultimately those are the kinds of films that I most respond to.

I love big blowout movies and some superhero movies, but in making a list of my favorite films, I noticed intuitively that I was picking films by Satyajit Ray, [Vittorio] De Sica, Chaplin, directors like that 鈥� Ozu, the great Japanese director 鈥� the films were intensely about people and their lives in a very humanistic way. And I think that resonates with Monitor readers as well.

And also, documentaries: I think it鈥檚 important to learn stuff, not in a pedantic or academic way, but to learn other people鈥檚 lives and other ways of living through documentary is a great thing. You know, I did several documentaries on Sidney Poitier and the Hustons, and even there, I was entering an entirely different realm.

And, it鈥檚 a fascinating experience to do that and to, as a critic and as an audience member, to see other people鈥檚 lives and the way they live ... to see it through a non-dramatized periscope is fascinating and important, and one of the things that鈥檚 always drawn me to film. I think that鈥檚 another thing that resonates with Monitor audiences because there鈥檚 a kind of global outreach that the Monitor encompasses that fits very well with that attitude.

Collins: I wonder, besides deciding on what you鈥檙e going to review, how are you working with editors these days around themes and ideas, including the Monitor鈥檚 sort-of-new values orientation?

Rainer: Generally, I鈥檒l see what鈥檚 coming out over the next number of months. It鈥檚 not hard and fast because release dates change, particularly with the industry in turmoil. But I get a general sense of what鈥檚 out there for the next number of months, and I just sort of figure out with my editor, Kim Campbell, what might be most worthy of being covered.

But I don鈥檛 pin anything down until I see the movie. I mean, there are some films, like 鈥淚ndiana Jones鈥� or whatever, where it鈥檚 sort of a given that I鈥檒l be doing it, even if it鈥檚 a terrible movie. But a lot of the time, you know, I don鈥檛 like to say, 鈥渨ell, I鈥檓 going to do this film because blah blah,鈥� and then I see it and it鈥檚 terrible. Now, there鈥檚 a value in doing terrible movies, too, if there鈥檚 something going on in the film that鈥檚 worth discussing. And I guess from a consumer standpoint, it鈥檚 valuable to tell readers to not waste your money on this movie.

I don鈥檛 think specifically in terms of values when I鈥檓 doing the review; I just write the review, and, if there鈥檚 a value that can be drawn from the review, then that鈥檚 what we do. There are many different aspects to a film, and therefore, many different values that can be attached to it, so it鈥檚 a kind of shorthand guide to the overall tenor of a movie. 

Collins: You mentioned public discourse as kind of one guide to thinking about what to cover, but in entertainment culture, we see these really hyper buzzy phenomena like 鈥淏arbenheimer鈥� or the question of whether superhero movies are a scourge, you know, as [Martin] Scorsese and others maintain. The chatter can sometimes become greater than the works themselves. So as a critic, how do you keep yourself moored in your own context-based reality?

Rainer: Yeah, it鈥檚 a very difficult thing to do, Clay. I mean, some critics want to know everything about every movie that鈥檚 coming out. They read the plot, audience reactions, previews and buzz, advanced reviews, the trades, and all the rest of it. I try to avoid that as much as possible, because ideally I would like to walk into a film not knowing a whole lot about it.

Some people feel differently. You know, I鈥檓 not talking even about spoiler alerts, but just ... I want to approach it as freshly as I can, and being in the business that I鈥檓 in and also being for the most part in Los Angeles,  that鈥檚 a tall order, because you鈥檙e surrounded by this juggernaut. But I try to separate out what I鈥檓 seeing from all of the buzz and PR that goes on, and I think I鈥檓 fairly good at that because I鈥檝e been doing this for a long time, and I know hype when I hear it, and, you know, I just can sort of separate it out.

I think I鈥檓 old school in that ideally I would love to see as many films as I can, the way they were meant to be seen: on a big screen.

There are a lot of documentaries and smaller films where it doesn鈥檛 really matter that much, but for the most part 鈥� and I think most filmmakers would agree with me 鈥� they want their films to be seen in a communal setting on a big screen.I think hopefully that鈥檚 coming back, to some degree.

I think that the joy of being in a crowded theater and seeing something that really elates you, and feeling that shared experience on this larger than life imagery is unmatchable.

Collins: Peter, violence in films is something that you鈥檝e decried, when it鈥檚 gratuitous or glorified. And you鈥檝e had an interesting relationship with Quentin Tarantino, who鈥檚 an apparent fan of yours, even though you haven鈥檛 鈥� [laughs] ... you haven鈥檛 been anything approaching a fanboy. Can you tell us about the encounter you had around the time 鈥淥nce Upon a Time...in Hollywood鈥� came out?

Rainer: Yeah. That was very interesting. I was, at the time, a member of the New York Film Critics Association 鈥� as well as LA 鈥� and we had an annual awards dinner and he was given the award for best screenplay for 鈥淥nce Upon a Time...in Hollywood.鈥� So I鈥檓 there with my date and my two nephews and we鈥檙e having a wonderful Chinese meal, a star-studded room, lots of other famous filmmakers and critics and Tarantino accepts the award and starts thanking people and he says he鈥檚 always grew up reading critics, and then he says...

鈥淧eter Rainer, film critic for 海角大神, you鈥檝e never given me an (expletive deleted) good review in (expletive deleted) 30 years!鈥� Uh, so, you know, I dropped my chopsticks and, you know鈥�whoa! And I looked over to my nephews, and they said, 鈥渃ool!鈥� So鈥�

Collins: [Laughs.]

Rainer: Then he went on to say, 鈥測ou know, I grew up reading you. I worked in a video store. I saved your reviews 鈥� I still have your (expletive deleted) reviews in my office.鈥� 

I didn鈥檛 know how to take it. I mean, it鈥檚 a weird sort of backhanded compliment. Um, I [had] never met him. So afterwards, everyone said, 鈥渨ell, you鈥檝e got to go over and say hello to Quentin,鈥� and I said, 鈥渨ell, really? I don鈥檛 want to get, you know, into punching.鈥�

But I did, and, you know, I said, 鈥渓ook, it鈥檚.... It鈥檚 not actually true that I鈥檝e never liked any of your films, I think you鈥檙e very talented, I love 鈥楯ackie Brown,鈥� and I think you deserve a lot of credit for resuscitating the careers of John Travolta, Pam Grier, and Robert Forster, and this idea that you鈥檙e going to stop making movies after your next one and retire after 10 would be a loss to film.鈥�

I didn鈥檛 get into the violence aspect with him because I just didn鈥檛 want to get into it with him, but he accepted it sort of graciously. You know, his wife was there giving him the side eye, but that was my encounter with Quentin. The problem I have with his movies and with violence on film in general, it鈥檚 not so much the depiction of violence that I don鈥檛 care for; it鈥檚 the lack of consequence to the violence.

I鈥檓 not talking about big, blow-up superhero movies, but films where 鈥渞eal鈥� people supposedly are getting shot, killed, maimed, etc., and, you know it鈥檚 like a bunch of schmooze, and I felt that that was the case with a lot of Tarantino鈥檚 movies, that it鈥檚 there as a kind of theater. It doesn鈥檛 really have any sense of human consequence to the violence, and that鈥檚 what I object to.

Collins: It鈥檚 a good story, and as you said the other day when we spoke, unless you鈥檙e a hermit, you end up in close proximity to people you鈥檝e either praised or disparaged, and there you have it. [Laughs.]

Rainer: Yeah, well, it鈥檚 true. I mean the thing is if you鈥檙e a film critic, particularly in Hollywood or to some extent in New York, you鈥檙e going to find yourself in situations where you are in close proximity with filmmakers and actors. My feeling is, you know, look, if there鈥檚 an actor or director who you really admire their work, and they鈥檙e at the other end of the room or something, it鈥檚 only human to want to reach out and say something, you know?

The difficulty is when you don鈥檛 like one of their movies, and then you find out who your real friends are 鈥� that鈥檚 happened, too. You know, you just have to say, 鈥渨ell, I鈥檓 going to be true to my values, and if they don鈥檛 like it, then that鈥檚 it.鈥�

Still, you know, you try to avoid certain situations. My dad went to college with Glenn Close鈥檚 father and he said, 鈥渨ell, if you ever run into her out there, you should say hello to her dad for me.鈥�

So I said, 鈥淥K, fine, never gonna happen.鈥� And of course, about two months later, I鈥檓 in this function and there鈥檚 Glenn Close, who I鈥檇 given 鈥� you know, I thought, OK reviews to, but I made the mistake of going over and introducing myself and extending my hand, you know, doing all the wrong things. And this is around the time of 鈥淔atal Attraction.鈥� And she gives me this, you know, sort of basilisk鈥檚 look and says, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 think I like you.鈥�

So, you know, there鈥檚 that too.

Collins: She had just boiled the rabbit, to be fair. So maybe just a holdover.

Rainer: [Laughs] Yeah.

Collins: Peter, we also spoke off mic about how much you like to tell people about movies they should see, films that might even change their lives. And you said you never look down on people with gaps in their film knowledge.

So how did film capture you and what do you want people to know about the greatness of film?

Rainer: Well, I loved movies from as early as I can remember anything. I grew up in New York, in the suburbs, so I would go to a lot of the art houses and see great movies in revival or on [WITI-TV鈥檚] 鈥淭he Late, Late Show,鈥� and  in college I was the film critic for my college newspaper. I always had this love for movies and I loved comic books and I realized it鈥檚 because the frames of the comic book are like storyboards, they sort of show you the frame by frame action. It was very interesting.

The thing that really resonates for me as a film critic is not so much praising a film that everybody loves鈥� I mean, that鈥檚 great. I love 鈥淭he Godfather,鈥� I love a lot of very popular movies 鈥� 鈥淛aws鈥� 鈥� but if you can direct an audience to a film that they might not normally know about or even feel that they care about, that to me, is what it鈥檚 all about, ultimately. 

When you review a movie and somebody says, 鈥測ou know... I saw this film that I wasn鈥檛 gonna see, but, I sort of trust what you have to say even when I don鈥檛 agree. And I went to see it and I loved it.鈥�

An example of this was earlier in the year: it was a film called 鈥淧ast Lives,鈥� by a Korean-Canadian director. It鈥檚 a wonderful movie, and it鈥檚 gotten a lot of momentum since then, basically. From critics like me and [through] word of mouth, you know, audiences have started to see it... that鈥檚 incredibly gratifying.

When I鈥檝e taught film classes, I realized that a lot of the young people who are seeing films now don鈥檛 have a knowledge of film going back five or six years. If you mentioned Marlon Brando or Dustin Hoffman, you get a blank look. And initially I felt, 鈥淥h, gee, that鈥檚 terrible.鈥� I mean, you鈥檙e trying to make this your life. And if you were a grad student in American literature and you鈥檇 never read Melville or Hawthorne or Henry James, you know, what does that say? But my attitude now is, 鈥渨ell, wow, you have a lot to look forward to. I envy you.鈥� 

And also, I like letting people in on what鈥檚 great. And from older movies, give them a sense of what鈥檚 going on now in movies. Because if you only go by what鈥檚 out there now in film, there are certainly great films. But there鈥檚 this backlog of hundreds and hundreds of great movies that can literally change your life for the better. They can transform you and open your eyes to what art can be, what life can be, what the human experience can be in ways that are incredibly fulfilling.

But I think to be able to really open people鈥檚 eyes to movies in a way that maybe they wouldn鈥檛 see normally on their own, to say I didn鈥檛 see that in this film, now I do, I understand what he鈥檚 saying, I understand more of what鈥檚 going on here. I think that鈥檚 the critic鈥檚 function.

Collins: Thank you, Peter, for talking today, for being very much up to speed and for being a guide for Monitor readers on an important part of the cultural landscape.

Rainer: Thanks, Clay.

Collins: Thanks for listening to this edited, encore episode, which was initially produced in 2023 after that year鈥檚 Toronto International Film Festival. This time, like last time, it was hosted by me, Clay Collins, produced by Mackenzie Farkus and Jingnan Peng. Tim Malone and Alyssa Britton were our sound engineers, with original music by Noel Flatt. Produced by 海角大神, copyright 2024.