In Tulsa, a pastor鈥檚 fight for reparations and racial justice
Our reporters touch base with a prominent pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma, about the evolving fight for reparations in the city. This is an update to Part 1 of our podcast 鈥淭ulsa Rising.鈥�
When our reporters met the Rev. Robert Turner in September, he was deep in the fight for reparations for the victims of the 1921 Tulsa race massacre. Every Wednesday for two years, he鈥檇 marched from City Hall to the Historic Vernon African Methodist Episcopal Church, the church where he serves as pastor. He鈥檇 preach to anyone who would listen about the need to repair the harm done to the Black community 鈥� in Tulsa and across the country.
Now, as Tulsa commemorates the massacre鈥檚 centennial, we reconnect with Mr. Turner. He shares his frustrations over what he views as efforts to stall progress toward racial justice. He also talks about where he does see change, and what he hopes Tulsa can show the rest of the country.
鈥淚 hope they see if you hide from history, the problems don鈥檛 go away,鈥� Mr. Turner says. 鈥淭hey only exacerbate them.鈥�
Episode transcript
Jessica Mendoza: Hi everyone, I鈥檓 Jessica Mendoza.
Samantha Laine Perfas: And I鈥檓 Samantha Laine Perfas.
Jess: And this is 鈥淭ulsa Rising,鈥� a podcast by 海角大神 鈥�
Sam: 鈥� where we take a close look at the legacy of the 1921 Tulsa race massacre.
[Music]
Jess: We first reported this story in the fall of 2020. The George Floyd protests were still fresh, the U.S. presidential election hadn鈥檛 happened, and the pandemic was about to surge for the holidays.
Sam: A lot has happened since then. So we called back some of the folks we spoke to to learn what 2021 has brought their way. Today, we hear from Reverend Robert Turner, pastor of Vernon AME, a church in Tulsa鈥檚 historic Greenwood neighborhood.
Jess: We talk to him about everything from church renovations to his lifelong fight for reparations 鈥� which now includes the lawsuit that survivors and descendants of the massacre have filed against the city. We even ask him about the trial and conviction of Derek Chauvin, the former police officer who killed George Floyd.
Sam: Reverend Turner also brings up in Tulsa and across the state.
KFOR Oklahoma News 4 anchor: 鈥� one of the authors of House Bill 1775 鈥�
Sam: House Bill 1775 bans critical race theory from being taught in public schools in Oklahoma. Supporters say it protects kids from being shamed or indoctrinated.
NewsChannel 8 Tulsa anchor: 鈥� that force children to submit to the Marxist and racist theology of critical race theory鈥�
Sam: Critics say it鈥檚 silencing conversations about race to pander to white fragility.
KFOR Oklahoma News 4 anchor: 鈥� Oklahoma Public Schools Board says the bill was 鈥渁n outright racist and oppressive piece of legislation鈥︹��
Jess: In fact, the governor of Oklahoma, Kevin Stitt, signed the bill into law in early May. And a few days later, that鈥檚 overseeing the centennial events. Anyway, Reverend Turner gets pretty fired up about the law.
Sam: If you haven鈥檛 yet, we recommend listening to Part 1, 鈥淭heir Blood Still Speaks,鈥� before you tune in to this interview.
Jess: You can find the whole series, including the updates, wherever you listen to podcasts. Or you can visit csmonitor.com/tulsarising. Now: our conversation with Reverend Turner.
[Music]
Sam: Hey, Reverend, thanks for joining us today. Our first question was, we were wondering if you鈥檙e still marching every week.
Rev. Robert Turner: Yes, we are every single week we are marching. We meet in front of city hall and we protest. And during the winter months, we went to once a month. But we still meet every week in front of City Hall. Yes, ma鈥檃m.
Sam: And then we were also 鈥� we saw in the news that it looks like you guys are restoring some of your stained glass windows. Can you talk a little bit about that, is that still happening?
Turner: It is. It is. And not only is it happening, but the 17th of this month, the windows will return to Vernon and they should be completely installed by the 26th of May. Those are historic windows that have been here since the church was rebuilt after the racist massacre of 1921. It was built by the survivors, paid for by the survivors. It鈥檚 just remarkable that they have been able to last nearly 100 years. And I鈥檓 so excited to see what they paid for and built be restored and to be seen for generations to come.
Jess: And it sounds like it鈥檒l be just in time for the centennial as well.
Turner: That鈥檚 right.
Jess: Could you describe the stained glass windows? What do they look like? And are they depicting anything in particular?
[Music]
Turner: They are unlike anything you have ever seen in your life. The array of colors that are represented, the lilies, the tulips are there, the names of the individuals who donated to pay for them. Before the restoration, they were appraised at well over a million dollars. And after the restoration, I can only imagine what they will be appraised for.
[Music]
Sam: I know you can鈥檛 really talk about specifics of the lawsuit, the reparations lawsuit, because it is ongoing. But we did notice that it looks like two new living survivors were identified and added. How did you feel about that when that happened?
Turner: Oh, I feel 鈥� I feel great about it. And I鈥檓 happy. And I hope that if there are more survivors that they come out because we need all of them to join this suit. We need as much momentum as possible. We don鈥檛 want to leave anybody out.
Jess: We鈥檝e seen some interesting movement around reparations in other parts of the country. Evanston, Illinois, was in the news having approved sort of a reparations plan for their city. Congress was advancing slavery reparations bill. What are your thoughts on what it鈥檚 looking like, big picture, for this movement that you have been so deeply involved in on such a personal level for so long?
Turner: Really, after I started the weekly protest, people at first were laughing, you know, and criticizing and then it turned from there to like 鈥� it became part of regular conversation. What is reparations and what would that look like? It鈥檚 so rewarding to see, like nationally it鈥檚 becoming a thing. I鈥檝e been an advocate for reparations since, like high school, middle school. When I first found out about the horrors of slavery, you know, and the fact that our nation has never done anything to atone for it. It鈥檚 just really, really cool to go from that moment and from even my colleagues who believe in social justice, but have always thought reparations was just too much of an ask. You know, to see them, like, OK, it is something that we 鈥� we are due. In fact, I like to say it鈥檚 not due, it鈥檚 past due.
Sam: Do you think this is a pivotal moment in our country when it comes to not just acknowledging our racist history, but moving towards actually repairing the damage it caused? Or how is this moment different or not different than moments like this in the past?
Turner: That鈥檚 a wonderful question. So the same country that I just spoke highly of, as far as progress 鈥� that same country, though, you cannot look at this country and not just historically, but even under its current context, say 鈥淎merica is not a racist nation.鈥� Every day that we don鈥檛 address those things that this country did, we are continuing the context that we鈥檙e criticizing. So it鈥檚 not enough for us to criticize redlining. It鈥檚 not enough for us to criticize Jim Crow. No, you need to address that. You need to repair that. Otherwise, you鈥檙e still operating from a racist framework.
[Music]
And now parallel to that problem you have, in states like Oklahoma, we have a movement to remove any historical teaching of what I just said. They want to abandon critical race theory from public schools, not even just K-12, but colleges and universities. It was terrible to not know your history. Ignorance is something that we have to all strive to be relieved and liberated from. But what鈥檚, to me, even more sad is to know this history, to know the horrors, and not only not do anything about it, but you don鈥檛 even want other future generations to know about it. I鈥檓 here in Tulsa, and we had the same situation happen after the 1921 Tulsa race massacre where it happened. People knew it happened, but they didn鈥檛 want anybody else to know about it. So they just didn鈥檛 teach it, and because they did not teach it, we have still never healed. And Tulsa is just a microcosm of America.
[Music]
Jess: I wanted to ask you about the Derek Chauvin verdict and how that was received in the Black community in Tulsa. It鈥檚 interesting that that happened, you know, in the lead up to the centennial. So we鈥檙e just curious, where were Tulsa is at with that? Where you鈥檙e at with that?
Turner: I was very much thankful to see the verdict in the Chauvin case. But the very fact, the very fact that the African-American community was on pins and needles, showed just how little faith we have in our justice system. And so I鈥檓 excited that this case actually shows one example of accountability. As a Black man in the same demographic as George Floyd, I felt a little bit more safe in this country after that verdict.
Sam: What do you think that verdict means moving forward?
Turner: Well, time will tell if that was an aberration or if that is a part of the new normal where Black lives will be seen as everybody else. So I would like to think it鈥檚 a turning point. But as a Black man in America, I can never get too excited about any so-called progress we have.
[Music]
Jess: What are your dreams for the city coming out of this season?
Turner: Oh, my 鈥� my dreams for the city is that she truly fulfills her potential. Tulsa is a beautiful city with some amazing people who want to see change and who want to see true healing. And so I鈥檓 just hoping that Tulsa continues to grow closer to that more perfect city, where equity and justice reign and where healing can actually take place.
Sam: I think I asked you this back in October, but a lot has happened since then, so I鈥檓 going to ask again: as the world turns its eyes to Tulsa, what do you hope other people from outside the city can learn about the experience Tulsa has gone through over the last hundred years?
Turner: I hope they see if you hide from history, the problems don鈥檛 go away. They only exacerbate them. I hope they see a city that even 100 years later is still grappling with, how do we heal, how do we repair? I hope they see a city where people don鈥檛 run from their problems or at least, there are some civic community leaders that refuse to let injustice die. And I think every city has those type of people. And I think instead of shunning them, I think we ought to embrace and listen to them because they are speaking from a place of love and they鈥檙e speaking because they actually do want to bring people together. But as King said, 鈥淚njustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.鈥� And we want justice everywhere.
Sam: Well, thank you so much, Reverend Turner, for taking time today to chat with us and just update us on how things are going there.
Turner: I appreciate you. You know, anytime you need me, I鈥檓 here.
Jess: Thank you so much.
Sam: Sounds good. We鈥檒l talk to you later.
Jess/Sam: Bye.
[Music]
Jess: Thanks for listening! Next time: What happens when your history is marked by such a huge failure of leadership? We explore the politics of Black Tulsa in Part 2 of Tulsa Rising: 鈥淭he Illusion of Inclusion.鈥�
Sam: If you鈥檙e enjoying this series, please rate and review us! You can find all our episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher. Or visit csmonitor.com/tulsarising.
Jess: This episode was reported and produced by me, Jessica Mendoza.
Sam: And me, Samantha Laine Perfas.
Jess: Edited by Clay Collins. Sound design by Morgan Anderson and Noel Flatt. Additional audio elements from KFOR Oklahoma News 4 and NewsChannel 8 Tulsa. Brought to you by 海角大神, copyright 2021.
